E.P.A. Fines For Not Using Unavailable Biofuel

[Jaybar]

These are cities:

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These are also cities:

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What people think cities are:

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This is what we've been doing since WWII and it's killing us.

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Yes, I am saying we need to move back to cities, to urban mixed communities - economically and socially diverse communities.

[RKenshin]

Truth be told, while public transportation saves people money in the long run, it's not practical for a lot of activities or communities. What happens when that family of 4 wants to go on vacation? Still gonna need a car. Want to buy a lot of groceries? Still gonna need that car. Want to go do anything on a whim and not take forever to get there*? Still gonna need that car.

Using public transportation doesn't require you sell your car. Some people do, but that is without question the case of the rare exception and not the rule.

And, I've seen (and know) plenty of people that have used public transportation in some way for all of those activities.

Is it the most convenient method? No, of course not. But for some people convenience doesn't rule their world, and for some it's the only option.

Hell, one of my best friends is 25 and has never owned a car... but he still regularly travels around New England, goes to school, goes shopping, and buys groceries.

[RKenshin]

You assume that all jobs and all cities are like New York. You don't need to limit where you work but where you live. I know it's a hard concept to understand but it's what people have been doing for hundreds of years. The huge issue we need to overcome is the myth that cities/urban communities are derelict societies filled with homeless people and smog. Hence, the exodus to the suburbs - 20mi away. You can thank the Industrial Age for that (see: Coalbrookdale).

And yes, I'm sure that moving 50 mi is not convenient for most people. Why the hell they are commuting by car 50mi is another issue all together.

These are cities:

Spoiler: show

These are also cities:

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What people think cities are:

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This is what we've been doing since WWII and it's killing us.

Spoiler: show

Yes, I am saying we need to move back to cities, to urban mixed communities - economically and socially diverse communities.

What? lol

I have never, ever, not even once heard of someone seriously saying "oh I'd love to move closer to the city, and can even afford it, but I don't wanna get shot/mugged/killed/live in a pile of poop LOLOLOL." This coming from someone in business that knows quite a lot of people that work in Boston/Prov/Hartford/NYC.

The only people that I could ever imagine seriously thinking that are country people that never lived or worked in a city and have no idea what they're talking about to begin with.

The real major reason that people don't live in cities (or the immediate vicinity) is because the rent/mortgage is exponentially more expensive the closer you are.

You realize that in the American city pictures you showed, any apartment/condo/townhouse anywhere close to the immediate foreground of those pictures would be going for multi-millions? You'd be lucky to find a rent/mortgage that was $2-3k/month, and that's simply NOT possible by any means for the overwhelming majority of Americans. And, most people don't want to live in a 10x10 studio apartment that they rent for twice the cost of a mortgage on an entire multi-bedroom, beautiful house.

The simple fact is the majority of Americans do work in cities, but the majority of Americans also can't afford to live in (or even close to) them.

And the areas that are most affordable, either are:
1. Miles, miles, and miles away from the actual city.
or
2. Do in fact often look exactly like the destitute slums.
or
3. Are an incredible rip-off for the value of the actual living space.

None of this will ever change, no matter what you tell people. Not with our ballooning population.

[Salodin]

Using public transportation doesn't require you sell your car. Some people do, but that is without question the case of the rare exception and not the rule.

Then us saying it helps save money in the long run is kinda moot, you're paying for one or the other and either saving money, or gaining convenience (whatever that might be worth to you); or you do both and pay out the ass for both, gaining convenience when its convenient, but still not coming out that far ahead. I see the benefit to public transportation, but most cities just aren't built to make it as practical as more efficient cars.

[archibaldcrane]

What? lol

I have never, ever, not even once heard of someone seriously saying "oh I'd love to move closer to the city, and can even afford it, but I don't wanna get shot/mugged/killed/live in a pile of poop LOLOLOL." This coming from someone in business that knows quite a lot of people that work in Boston/Prov/Hartford/NYC.

The only people that I could ever imagine seriously thinking that are country people that never lived or worked in a city and have no idea what they're talking about to begin with.

The real major reason that people don't live in cities (or the immediate vicinity) is because the rent/mortgage is exponentially more expensive the closer you are.

Um

suburban sprawl was a direct response to high crime/fear of minorities/shitty schools in cities - self segregation for a better life, even if it meant hour+ long commutes each way. Even as I was looking for a house in LA, plenty of people in the older generation were encouraging me to buy out in the suburbs because the schools were better. It had nothing to do with the price of houses (house prices in many LA suburbs are the same or higher than in the city).

[RKenshin]

Then us saying it helps save money in the long run is kinda moot, you're paying for one or the other and either saving money, or gaining convenience (whatever that might be worth to you); or you do both and pay out the ass for both, gaining convenience when its convenient, but still not coming out that far ahead. I see the benefit to public transportation, but most cities just aren't built to make it as practical as more efficient cars.

Public transportation savings aren't mute if you still own a car, in any sense.

I gave a solid example that the cost of gas, miles put on your car, and parking can sum up to a large enough amount of money/year to make a huge difference in a not uncommon situation where I live. Common for the average American? Of course not; but still is for many working at cities.

The tl;dr of that post was:
In a (relatively common for my area, at that) Prov-Boston commute, min of $7245.13 driving vs max of $3,944.19 public transportation, for a min savings of $3,300.94/year in choosing a public transportation.

Um

suburban sprawl was a direct response to high crime/fear of minorities/shitty schools in cities - self segregation for a better life, even if it meant hour+ long commutes each way. Even as I was looking for a house in LA, plenty of people in the older generation were encouraging me to buy out in the suburbs because the schools were better. It had nothing to do with the price of houses (house prices in many LA suburbs are the same or higher than in the city).

I'll bite my tongue I guess, I still stand by that I have never met/known anyone that said 'I can move in the city and can afford it, but won't because of I'm scared/don't like the neighborhood/system.' Likely because they're all my age and not, as you pointed out, part of the older generation... And none of which are weighing family values into it, which complicates the whole discussion far more than I wanted to get into.

And, I can't speak for the west coast but anything even remotely close to major cities on the east coast (which in my experience; primarily Boston, NYC) are always significantly more expensive than in/immediate vicinity of the city.

[hey]

Yes, I am saying we need to move back to cities, to urban mixed communities - economically and socially diverse communities.

Well fuck, if you say that everyone should just pack up and move to a city, i'll have to get right on that.

If only it were even possible..

[Jaybar]

"We need to", not we have to. I suppose that's a semantics issue and it's my fault I didn't make it clearer. It's our jobs as citizens and a society to move back to the city, but in order to do that we have to make it habitable again. I say we as in urban planners, designers, architects, councilmen, and citizens. That was the point I was originally trying to make but I think I got lost in a blood fury.

We can sustain a ballooning population far easier by building denser rather than by sprawling.

[hey]

Well, looking at the big picture, sure, it makes a lot of sense.

But when you consider the individuals, it may not always be desirable, or possible (financially).

[Jaybar]

You can probably write off your gas as a work expense if you need to travel that far.

I don't mean to beat a dead horse, but apparently you can't deduct expenses from commuting to and from work (pg. 7).