Israel-Palestine: The Great Book Robbery

[solanis]

palestinian history is just the history of arabs in the region after the jews moved in. it's hard to compare almost 400 years of history in a new land with a chapter shorter than a lifespan in a small region. I would argue that palestinians have existed as their own group for too short a time for a unique culture to develop. if anything, it's just the generic history of camp living and terrorism.

[Churchill]

one that wasn't created out of thin air for the purpose of trolling the israeli state

elvis is going to have a heart attack but w/e bring it

Sort of like the Israeli state that was created out of thin air to troll Germany

[BaneTheBrawler]

So at what point does an area of shared experience go from just generic history to a fully fledged culture? that's the point i was trying to make when I asked what constitutes a "real" culture. Where do you draw the line? Who gets to draw the line?

[Churchill]

Just curious, before WWII was Israel a country

[Churchill]

Also curious, before WWII was Palestine the area east and west of the Jordan River declared to be Palestine by Britain, and then following WWI declared (West of the Jordan) to be Palestine?

[solanis]

So at what point does an area of shared experience go from just generic history to a fully fledged culture? that's the point i was trying to make when I asked what constitutes a "real" culture. Where do you draw the line? Who gets to draw the line?

beat me tbh, the one I'm drawing is pretty common

[Elvis]

Palestinians have lived on that land for thousands of years. Palestinian Jews (this is how they were identified during the Mandate, by the British) lived there too but in a fraction of the numbers.

The entire argument that Palestinians don't exist, or Palestine never existed is a no-true-scotsman to DEHUMANIZE the Palestinian people and strip them of their right to the land.

Frankly, it doesn't matter what they call themselves. It doesn't matter what the odd Palestinian militia member, politician, etc. said about Palestinian nationalism. This conflict is full of interesting quotes.

Most of the quotes I can pull up by Israelis are not from random, obscure figures but the founders of the Israeli State and the 'forefathers' of Zionism. There are far more interesting comments that undermine Zionist myths, made BY Zionist leaders than anything Solanis can scrape at the bottom of the barrel from whatever far-right, pro-settler fascist circle-jerk.

[Elvis]

of course, but there's no such thing as a palestinian ethnicity or history. they're just jordanians, given a new name to fuck further with israel. I can pull a ton of quotes from palestinian leaders for you confirming it if you like, if only so I'm not accused unjustly of trolling

Your quotes don't mean anything. I could just so easily quote Herzl, Ben-Gurion, Moshe Dayan, etc. etc. etc. etc. except, in their case it's all backed up by historical fact and relevant in the present. Those are prominent Zionist figures. There are far far more of them, your founders, uttering things anti-Zionists say regularly today than the odd Palestinian saying 'we did it to fight the Jews'.

Arab anti-Semitism exists, historically and in the present, but it in no way is the true face of Palestinian nationalism. The Palestinian Arabs were right to fear their possible dispossession and displacement by Zionist settlers in the Mandate - because that is what happened to them.

Benny Morris states that the Palestinian antagonism to Zionism was rooted in that fear.

In any case, the people you're referring to don't even matter. For every comment they made, there are comments by Palestinians who did matter, like Dr. Mustafa al Khalidi - former mayor of Jerusalem and who on the Appeals Court and Supreme Court of Palestine:

We must recognize facts. The Jews have entered the country, become citizens, have become Palestinians, and they cannot be thrown into the sea. Likewise, they have bought land and received deeds in exchange for money and we must recognize them. There is no point in closing our eyes about such clear things.

See: Hillel Cohen, “Army of Shadows: Palestinian Collaboration with Zionism, 1917-1948″, University of California Press, 2008, pages 84-85.

This was generous of him. During the 40s, the Jewish National Fund bought most of the land owned by Jews in Palestine.

However, the 1940 Land Transfer Ordinance greatly complicated the acquisition of land, but unofficial and unregistered transfers continued.

The Zionist project until the end of the Mandate was only able to muster ownership of 6 % of the land.

This map is based on the UN Survey of the Mandate:

Spoiler: show

http://www.palestineremembered.com/M..._OwnerShip.gif

[solanis]

told you we'd get that novel

Spoiler: show

no one will read it elvis

[BaneTheBrawler]

I gotta say, you're not making a very good case, Solanis. Your argument essentially boils down to "Because I said so."

[Mazmaz]

they're just jordanians, given a new name to fuck further with israel.

Pakistani is just a new name given for Indian to fuck with Bangladesh.

[Elvis]

told you we'd get that novel

Spoiler: show

no one will read it elvis

I didn't write a novel.

Moving on, said solanis:

of course, but there's no such thing as a palestinian ethnicity or history. they're just jordanians, given a new name to fuck further with israel. I can pull a ton of quotes from palestinian leaders for you confirming it if you like, if only so I'm not accused unjustly of trolling

The boundaries of Palestine had been established in "Aide-memoire in regard to the occupation of Syria, Palestine and Mesopotamia pending the decision in regard to Mandates, September 13th 1919" that was handed by Prime Minister Lloyd George to M. Clemenceau and placed before the Versailles Peace Conference.

It divided the territory between the British, French, and Arab administered OETAs (Occupied Enemy Territory Administrations) on the basis of the "principles of the Sykes-Picot agreement" and "the Sykes-Picot line" - and Palestine was strictly limited to only that area occupied by the British armed forces after their withdrawal from Syria.

In March 1921 - the British Cabinet published a conclusion pointing out that fact as part of its General Policy on Mesopotamia and Palestine.

Source:

Spoiler: show

See the Conclusion, Former Reference: CC 14 (21); Dated 22 March 1921
Catalogue reference CAB 23/24
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/d...doc_Id=7968297

The Meeting was Chaired by Prime Minister Lloyd George whom I mentioned above and the other attendees included Lord Chancellor Birkenhead; Chancellor of the Exchequer Chamberlain; Secretary of State for India Montagu; Secretary of State for Home Affairs Shortt; Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs Curzon; Secretary of State for War Worthington; Chief of the Imperial General Staff Field-Marshal Wilson; Lieut-Colonel Amery, M. P. Parliamentary Under Secretary of State for the Colonies.

EXCERPT:

THE EMIR ABDULLAH AND TRANS-JORDANIA: That no immediate decision could be taken in regard to the proposal for appointing the Emir Abdullah as Governor of Trans--Jordania under the High Commissioner of Palestine, nor in regard to the other proposals for occupying Trans-Jordania, in regard to both of which the Cabinet felt considerable misgivings.

On political grounds they were informed that the installation of Abdullah to Trans-Jordania, combined with that of Feisal in Mesopotamia, would be regarded by the French as a menace. On military grounds they were reminded by the Chief of the Imperial General Staff that, the occupation of Trans-Jordania would involve a new commitment, the extension and, duration of which it was impossible to forecast.

The Cabinet, recognised that, in the event of an attack on the French in Syria from Trans-Jordania, we should not be entirely free from responsibility, since Trans-Jordania, though not forming part of the mandated territory, is included in the British zone of influence under the Sykes-Picot Agreement.

In view of the proximity of Trans-Jordania, however, they felt that the possibility should not be excluded of exercising such control as was necessary by action from Palestine itself. In these circumstances they felt that the right course would be to communicate their misgivings to Mr. Churchill before his interview with, the Emir Abdullah at Jerusalem on Easter Monday.

Source for Aide-memoire in regard to the occupation of Syria, Palestine and Mesopotamia pending the decision in regard to Mandates, 13 September 1919:

http://digicoll.library.wisc.edu/cgi...+page&page=216 (Second half of the page and on-going in PDF)

[tyven]

HOLD UP

does this mean that serbs only exist sometimes?

[Elvis]

On the issue of 'damnable' quotes:

There are so many to pick from. Ben-Gurion is the best, because he is one of the founding fathers of Israel. His diaries have been available for a long time. Here's one from Moshe Dayan, former Israeli Minister of Defense:

I know how at least 80 percent of the clashes there started. In my opinion, more than 80 percent, but let's talk about 80 percent. It went this way: We would send a tractor to plough someplace where it wasn't possible to do anything, in the demilitarized area, and knew in advance that the Syrians would start to shoot. If they didn't shoot, we would tell the tractor to advance farther, until in the end the Syrians would get annoyed and shoot. And then we would use artillery and later the air force also, and that's how it was.

See: p.236-237, Avi Shlaim's The Iron Wall, Israel And The Arab World, W. W. Norton & Company, 2002.

This website, PalestineRemembered, has a collection of quotes from Zionist leaders and thinkers (all sourced):

http://www.palestineremembered.com/A.../Story637.html

Look through the quotes by Ben-Gurion.

[Cleveland_7795]

Who the fuck cares? Palestinians can't fucking read anyway. The only 2 subjects in school are How to Hate and Kill Jews, and after lunch its revisionist history class.

[solanis]

none of your quotes have anything to do with what I was talking about. up your game elvis, damn

[Elvis]

Who the fuck cares? Palestinians can't fucking read anyway. The only 2 subjects in school are How to Hate and Kill Jews, and after lunch its revisionist history class.

Settler Rabbi publishes “The complete guide to killing non-Jews” — UPDATED





Popular Rabbi’s Comments on Treatment of Arabs Show a Different Side of Chabad (Different Rabbi, American this time)

I don’t believe in Western morality, i.e., don’t kill civilians or children, don’t destroy holy sites, don’t fight during holiday seasons, don’t bomb cemeteries, don’t shoot until they shoot first because it is immoral. The only way to fight a moral war is the Jewish way: Destroy their holy sites. Kill men, women and children (and cattle). The first Israeli prime minister who declares that he will follow the Old Testament will finally bring peace to the Middle East.

Academic claims Israeli school textbooks contain bias
Nurit Peled-Elhanan of Hebrew University says textbooks depict Palestinians as 'terrorists, refugees and primitive farmers'

Dr. Nurit Peled-Elhanan is a Lecturer in Language Education at Hebrew University in Jerusalem specializing in discourse in Israeli education with emphasis on visual and verbal presentation of Palestinian and non-western Jews.

Since the death of her 13 year-old daughter in a suicide bombing in Jerusalem, Israeli peace activist Peled-Elhanan has worked to promote dialogue between Israelis and Palestinians. She and her family work with the Palestinian and Israeli Bereaved Families for Peace. Her two elder sons are active in the peace movements of the Refusenik and Combatants for Peace, a new movement of Israeli and Palestinian ex-fighters. Peled-Elhanan is the recipient of the European Parliament 2001 Sakharov Prize for Human Rights and Freedom of Speech.

She is the daughter of the late Maj. Gen. Mattityahu ("Matti") Peled, a military commander and politician who later advocated a two-state solution.

[Elvis]

none of your quotes have anything to do with what I was talking about. up your game elvis, damn

They did - all of them.

I'm curious though, since you think Palestinians do not exist, but Jordanians do - why do Jordanians exist?

[BaneTheBrawler]

none of your quotes have anything to do with what I was talking about. up your game elvis, damn

Up his game? You claimed an entire people were made up to "troll" and then backed up that claim with "because i said so"

I reassert my previous suspicion of trolling.

[Correction]

Up his game? You claimed an entire people were made up to "troll" and then backed up that claim with "because i said so"

I reassert my previous suspicion of trolling.

Hi I'd like to meet solanis. All he does is troll Elvis by shitting up his threads and get away with it.