Israel-Palestine: The Law In These Parts

[Mazmaz]

The angry sex. See: Curb Your Enthusiasm, in the episode titled "Palestinian chicken."

Honestly one of the best episodes of the whole series I would say.

[Ragnus]

I never really bring the topic up much but she has her reasons, and I think Palestine is getting the short end of the stick while overall thinking the middle east is a giant waste of time and government money. I only ever follow middle eastern politics these days to add fuel to that belief since almost nothing seems to be changing there.

And yeah, I've seen Zohan many times. I took the message of everyone needing to get over themselves from the movie more than anything else on top of laughing my ass off the whole movie.

[Elvis]

why would you date someone that takes a side so strongly in a conflict where jews and muslims blow each other up to make points, let alone support one

I don't think of this conflict as Jews versus Muslims. I think if you do that, you can dismiss the entire Palestinian struggle as being motivated by Islamism and Jew-hatred. There's plenty of Jew-hatred to go around but it's not classic anti-Semitism and that is an important distinction. In a conflict as protracted as the Israel-Palestine conflict, it is stupid to dismiss the occupied people's opposition to their ethnic cleansing as 'Jew-hatred'. How fucking convenient. In our country, every group has political capital and 'Jewish identity' (not inherent, but rather the sociological aftermath of historical Jewish persecution and the success of the Jewish community in a society such as the US which does not persecute minorities) reigns supreme. That opposite is true for Arabs and Muslims.

I consider my own 'ethnic' identity (Indian-Americans) to be favorable but more like, a negative-positive stereotype (we're either doctors or taxi cab drivers). Indians are getting more mainstream in movies/TV/government/etc. Think of other social groups (WASPs). This is the kind of thinking I'm expressing. Not genetic but rather sociological.

'Families are always rising or falling in America.'

I think the indigenous Palestinian Arabs would have opposed any minority group among them who were trying to carve out a State on land that they (the Palestinians) had been living on continuously for thousands of years and had remained the majority population.

Say whatever you (not you specifically, but the general 'you') will about who the Palestinians are. They can be fucking Replicants for all I care. They were not recent immigrants like the flood of European Jews and Middle Eastern Jews who usurped them. There was a continuous Jewish presence in the land as well but it was always a minority. At the very HEIGHT of the Zionist enterprise during the Mandate Era of Palestine, they also owned at most, 6% of the land and property - a good chunk of which was bought illegally after the 1940 Land Transfer Ordinance was enacted.

The Arab riots and ensuing violence between the two groups was not surprising at all. No one would have tolerated a minority population trying to create a country on top of a majority population. Palestinian nationalism was a response to Zionism. A fear that Palestinians would become disenfranchised and dispossessed by the Jewish nationalists. And of course that happened.

The reason I became pro-Palestinian, are these basic conclusions that I think anyone can make without reading a library of books on the conflict.

The naive and simplistic statement of "it's not fair" also happens to be the truth.

Now, when I am an American, and 'my' politicians constantly tell me that Israel is our eternal ally, and when I see movies depicting Arabs and Muslims as monsters, and you have stupid shit like Draw-Mohammed-Day, and the nexus of Neoconservatism-Zionism-Islamophobia producing pseudo-intellectual clowns like Jennifer Rubin, Daniel Pipes, Caroline Glick, (extreme end) to people who are much more subtle like Ethan Bronner (NYTimes; son in the IDF, served on the board of a settler PR firm), Isabel Kershner (similar 'credentials' to Bronner, married to an Israeli writer who says stuff like this, etc. writing from mainstream periodicals, getting on the boards of war-mongering think-tanks that all overlap with other war-mongering think-tanks and PACs....

I am only more confident in my decision to have 'taken a side'. I mean, how do you rise to these positions within the mainstream American intelligentsia? For every Glenn Greenwald there's a 100 Cliff Mays.

I don't support Hamas, but I do support the right to any people under a 45+ year military occupation and colonization to fight back against their occupier and oppressor. That is not being 'bleeding heart liberal', that is called being well-read.

[Greatguardian]

It's amazing how quickly people on these forums will jump on posters like Egon who play the victim / moral equivalency card in regards to his religion while being a member of a dominant world superpower, yet will support or ignore the exact same tripe from Solanis and anyone else trying to draw a functional equivalency between the actions of a nuclear-powered military steamroller and a society of dispossessed neo-serfs - some of whom are so unbearably desperate that they would resort to blowing themselves up in order to fight back.

I'm an Atheist myself and even I can recognize that this issue would never stand up to scrutiny on these boards if the Palestinians happened to be Atheists or Gays themselves. No, it's okay that the endgame every homosexual or non-Abrahamic poster on these boards is secretly afraid of is happening to another group of people on the other side of the planet because they're dirty Arabs and not educated Americans with human rights.

[Churchill]

I think what you're saying is, BG libs are lol.

[Greatguardian]

I think what you're saying is, BG libs are lol.

Well, it's pretty applicable to people in general. It's just so glaringly blatant when you have BG Gay (Solanis included) up in arms about American sociopolitical injustice and BG Atheist slamming Egon constantly when he pulls that "Victim with power" shit (for good reason), and yet the same people shit all over or completely ignore the I-P situation because it doesn't apply to them directly.

The ftm transgendered gay man claiming that a culture "doesn't exist" because it's a recently highlighted phenomenon is patently hilarious, no fucking offense intended. It is the epitome of irony when someone whose own personal identity has only recently become PC can so quickly dismiss the personal identity of others.

[Churchill]

Yes, yes it is. I didn't even know what to say when I had to look up what FTM tran gay was. I'll avoid my exact thoughts because Israel is good and questioning the sanity of other things is not.

[Elvis]

I wouldn't be too perturbed by solanis or the lack of participation in BG Israel-Palestine threads. This issue is important because it forms a pillar (if not the centerpiece) of our foreign policy in the ME. I think people are uncomfortable talking about any issue relating critically to Jewish identity/history/activism. Then you have the people who just don't care because it doesn't interest them, or it doesn't affect them. I mean, even the Iraq War doesn't affect people. (Of course, if you're a soldier/former soldier/family of or friends of/etc.) What I mean I suppose, is that a lot of issues can't be 'felt' directly on a daily basis even though they are important.

I think the economy is an issue most people here 'feel' and so they will be more involved in that - and I think that's totally understandable/legitimate.

As to solanis's hypocrisy? No one on this forum has ever expressed the pro-Israel position articulately. I remember years ago, some commentator here named 'Skje'(sp) (I could be wrong) seemed to be well-meaning but he said he didn't talk about the issue anymore. All I see here is ignorant, infantile, petulant whining. If you are really looking to debate this issue, then go to MW. There are Zionists there who are well-read, but Zionist. If you're pro-Israel, look up 'Robert Werdine' for example. Once again, you have to actually give a shit and I know that rules a lot of people out. If you only care in the bumper-sticker sense of 'caring' about an issue, then fuck off.

We went through tons of Israel-Palestine threads, to the point where a lot of those 'bumper-sticker' commentators are gone. That's fine. I actually never made many I-P threads. It was usually Kuya. Now I will though because we have this sub-forum. It's not for discussion. It's to inform people, who pass by, on a viewpoint they don't see regularly. If discussion happens, then it's an added bonus.

I don't give a shit about the antagonism to my views, by the crazies. They can't back up their craziness w/ anything other than the antisemitism-card.

[solanis]

wow, so many opinions about me! I'm israeli, my family lives there still, and everyone who wasn't murdered in the holocaust moved there to help build it after the war. maybe some of you are too young to remember, or you were too young to care about an issue that has nothing to do with you other than being american (lol @ that rationale) but the suicide bombings of the late 90s/early 2000s removed any pity I have for this manufactured group. also, there isn't a person on this board who gets banned more than I do. you sure are a victim of my harsh tongue here, how horrible.

greatguardian, churchill: the trans community isn't an ethnic group. wtf? I like your backhanded questioning of my identification too, really cute.

[Churchill]

So technically, your family was potentially involved in ethnically cleansing the people of Palestine and stealing their homes because bad things happened to your family previously.

I'm not trying to troll either, either you can accept that what Israel (and by your own admition, your own family) did was not only wrong, but as abhorrent as what Nazi Germany did to the people it deemed "lesser beings" or you are as ignorant and prejudiced as any other zionist.

I know damned well I would kill anything in my path if there were people from another nation occupying my land in the US. That said, if I know one thing about Islam, it's this: Question-When is Jihad over? Answer-When we have won.

[solanis]

So technically, your family was potentially involved in ethnically cleansing the people of Palestine and stealing their homes because bad things happened to your family previously.

lol this is so offensive, fuck you kiddo

I know damned well I would kill anything in my path if there were people from another nation occupying my land in the US. That said, if I know one thing about Islam, it's this: Question-When is Jihad over? Answer-When we have won.

spoiler alert: they won't win. the longer they keep it up, the more lives that will be lost.

[solanis]

let's hope they don't take it that far.

[Churchill]

lol this is so offensive, fuck you kiddo



spoiler alert: they won't win. the longer they keep it up, the more lives that will be lost.

Except that's what happened, either they were involved or benefited from it. There's no way to work left or right of that issue.

Let me ask you something, with all the might of Europe behind the crusades, who held the Levant at the end of the "holy wars"?

[solanis]

look up the six-day war, churchill. or the yom kippur war. a pattern emerges: we don't lose to the arabs anymore.

[archibaldcrane]

Exactly the reason the US should stop giving half it's foreign aid budget to one tiny first-world country.

[solanis]

I agree, israel really doesn't need it anymore. I think the US over-gives because of christian guilt, residual guilt from WWII, and the opportunity to give arab nations the middle finger.

[Raldo]

I agree, israel really doesn't need it anymore. I think the US over-gives because of christian guilt, residual guilt from WWII, and the opportunity to give arab nations the middle finger.

Is there some actual reason why the US and Israel are butt-buddies in the first place or are those reasons you listed pretty much it? I tried to look it up once because I wanted to know where tax dollars were going and why, but I never got anywhere.

If it's a long explanation, I'm going to tl;dr you, so if you're going to write an essay trying to answer my question, please just post a link to something.

[Greatguardian]

wow, so many opinions about me! I'm israeli, my family lives there still, and everyone who wasn't murdered in the holocaust moved there to help build it after the war. maybe some of you are too young to remember, or you were too young to care about an issue that has nothing to do with you other than being american (lol @ that rationale) but the suicide bombings of the late 90s/early 2000s removed any pity I have for this manufactured group. also, there isn't a person on this board who gets banned more than I do. you sure are a victim of my harsh tongue here, how horrible.

greatguardian, churchill: the trans community isn't an ethnic group. wtf? I like your backhanded questioning of my identification too, really cute.

Differentiating between personal identities in the form of cultural groups and gender groups is super hard, bro. Neither of them means jack shit aside from what one identifies oneself with. I'm not questioning your identification one bit. I respect it. I'm simply extending that the same respect is due to other communities as well. Who the fuck are you to say an ethnic group doesn't exist? No better than anyone else in the world saying your gender doesn't exist.

Should the six-day war remove any pity I have for Holocaust survivors? Nah, son. You're pulling both sides of the same card. I'm half German. I have nothing against Jews. I have everything against people who use past tragedies as an excuse to commit the very same atrocities on another group of people. What, it's okay that Israel is a living Apartheid state and Arabs are treated as subhumans because of the Holocaust? That makes so much sense.

The US overgives because it's filled with bigots. It has nothing to do with Christian guilt and everything to do with nuking darkie. Israel is straight up fucked up, and you think it's justifiable because you don't give a fuck about Arabs. That's all well and good for you. It's hardly uncommon. I just find the irony absolutely delicious considering how much dehumanizing bullshit you must have gone through yourself. It is fucking sad when the first thing a marginalized group does upon gaining a modicum of power is turn around and marginalize those weaker than them.

[Churchill]

Like Israel

[Elvis]

wow, so many opinions about me! I'm israeli, my family lives there still, and everyone who wasn't murdered in the holocaust moved there to help build it after the war. maybe some of you are too young to remember, or you were too young to care about an issue that has nothing to do with you other than being american (lol @ that rationale) but the suicide bombings of the late 90s/early 2000s removed any pity I have for this manufactured group. also, there isn't a person on this board who gets banned more than I do. you sure are a victim of my harsh tongue here, how horrible.

greatguardian, churchill: the trans community isn't an ethnic group. wtf? I like your backhanded questioning of my identification too, really cute.

solanis, you get more and more pathetic and desperate in every I-P thread.

@Everyone else:

Let's put it all in perspective.

I made a thread about a documentary on the military courts in the Occupied Territories for the past 45+ years.

The documentary is based on extensive archival footage and testimonies from the architects of the military jurisprudence that governs the OT today. It is authored by an Israeli (superficial credentials, to fend off the anti-Arab racists and Islamophobes who may not trust an Arab to talk about the conflict from their own POV).

I made no crazy antisemitic editorial to accompany my citation of the documentary. I included mainstream sources like the New York Times.

The documentary won the top prize for it's genre at Sundance - hardly an antisemitic cesspool. It also won the Jerusalem Film Festival, Best Documentary award as well.

The very first comment solanis made in this thread can be seen on the first page.

What exactly is the controversy here?

The reason you are continually suspended from posting, solanis, is because you are a fucking moron.

It has nothing to do w/ political bias on BG. You simply shit up threads - and not just I-P threads. You were banned for comments you made in the economic-related discussions here as well.

Now, I have no idea why you bring up the Holocaust.

The Palestinians did not kill 6 million Jews, and suicide bombing began in 1994.

That is 27 years after the occupation and colonization of the West Bank, Gaza and E. Jerusalem.

That is after the First Intifada.

That is after Baruch Goldstein walked into a mosque and butchered 29 Palestinians praying.

In another thread, solanis characterized the whole of Palestinian society as being 'camp dwellers' (refugees) and terrorists.

Well, for one, they were made refugees. That is a given. You are made into a refugee - and it is Israel in the past, present and foreseeable future that is responsible for their dispossession and displacement.