FFXIII-2: Plot Discussion

[Katlan]

Yeah that does. thank you

[Cichy]

- Etro only actually intervened in getting the XIII crew out of their crystal stasis, everything before that was the crew doing their work or Bathandalus playing tricks on them. This was the first paradox yes. Etro felt sorry for the crew and the sacrifice they made that she released them from their crystals. This caused chaos to seep through Etro's gate, which when Etro tried to fix this also sucked in Lightning. This is something that Yuel mentions that "wasn't supposed to happen, somebody who should have returned, did not".

I thought she scorched the mark on Fang and Vanilles arm when they tried to destroy the cocoon first time?

- Lightning needed Noel to get Serah, so they could fight in the visible world while Lightning fights in the unvisible world. Lightning can't play around the visible world for long periods of time. Noel actually taking Caius' place solves nothing as is pointed out in a paradox ending. He would carry the curse of eternal life.

I thought she scorched the mark on Fang and Vanilles arm when they tried to destroy the cocoon first time?

Also, when Noel takes Caius power in that paradox it is kind of a happy ending. Yeah the curse does not end for Yuel but dint Yuel not mind dying over and over? Out of all the endings it was the most satisfying one.
If Noel took Caius power and fixed the timeline than Yuel would still get reincarnated but would probably live fairly long life. Seeing the future doesn't instantly kill you it just shortens your life. Problem was that Yuel seen tons of different visions from all the different timelines.

[Appie]

Well yeah she did intervene 500 years before the events of XIII by putting Fang and Vanille in crystal stasis, forgot that.

As for Noel taking the power from Caius, you could look at it as a "happy end", I didn't. I thought I would when I first heard about the scene, but seeing what Noel said in it made me change my mind since it doesn't solve anything. Sure Yuel doesn't mind, but Noel looked like he did. Also, iirc it was mentioned somewhere else in the game that if you were truly rightous or something you could break the curse of the Heart of Chaos, in that ending Noel failed, just like Caius before him.

[Jeryhn]

I thought she scorched the mark on Fang and Vanilles arm when they tried to destroy the cocoon first time?

I'm pretty sure the scorched version of a l'Cie brand comes from the l'Cie themselves - its an indication that a l'Cie defeats their focus without completing it or becoming a Cie'th. The power to beat one's fate, or rather, the unlimited power that mortals can potentially wield (particularly in l'Cie), comes from the chaos that Etro instilled in mortals - so you can say she was indirectly involved.

To use the game's example: The l'Cie are slaves to a Focus, but not necessarily the Focus they are assigned. In fact, Bartandelus proves to us that a l'Cie can simply be reawakened after completion of a Focus through Cid Raines. Fang was forced to become Ragnarok alone to destroy Cocoon. She didn't fail her Focus however, because she DID become Ragnarok - but for some reason it wasn't enough. Presumably, Fang denied her fate just before the moment and as a result her and Vanille went into crystal stasis. Fang's brand ended up scorched and Vanille's stayed normal, even though they both turnned to crystal.

Later on, at the end of XIII, Fang turns against the group when she decides they can't fight Orphan. She re-embraces her Focus, and her brand loses its scorched image as a result. She becomes Ragnarok, but again fails to bring down Cocoon. Her brand is rescorched afterwards. The rest of the group go Cie'th - but they also come back to their senses with scorched brands. They only do this after the one realization that Orphan unwittingly gives to them during the ending that turns the advantage to their own - that the power of l'Cie is unlimited, and that power extends to whatever decision their fate decides as well. As l'Cie, they can simply create their own Focus. As Lightning says, their new Focus is the "make the impossible possible".

At least, that's what I got from XIII's ending. Etro subsequently rewards the l'Cie with their normal human forms afterwards by removing their brands, and then all the stuff in XIII-2 happens.

[Priran]

I'm pretty sure the scorched version of a l'Cie brand comes from the l'Cie themselves - its an indication that a l'Cie defeats their focus without completing it or becoming a Cie'th. The power to beat one's fate, or rather, the unlimited power that mortals can potentially wield (particularly in l'Cie), comes from the chaos that Etro instilled in mortals - so you can say she was indirectly involved.

They've been saying Etro directly intervened and stopped Ragnarok since FFXIII, if they were planning to retcon it they'd probably stop repeating it all the damn time.

[Lonely]

I never really understood fangs scorched mark and what jehyhn said adds up, except Etro was the one who intervened on the first ragnarok thing, fang didn't choose to stop it. When she got out of crystal stasis though she forgot the ragnarok thing and only remembered how important vanille is to her and rewrote her focus to protect Vanille. Vanille doesn't have a scorched mark because she never resolved to change her focus and tried to ignore and hide from it.

[Burningthought]

Going to try and explain this in some points:
- Yuels and Caius existed long before the events of XIII. They always looked into the future. They always died pretty young. Caius was a l'Cie before Etro gave him the Heart of Chaos when she felt sorry for him that he fell in a battle trying to protect Yuel. This was the start of all the pain Caius had to endure of seeing somebody die over and over again. The curse of immortality.

- Etro only actually intervened in getting the XIII crew out of their crystal stasis, everything before that was the crew doing their work or Bathandalus playing tricks on them. This was the first paradox yes. Etro felt sorry for the crew and the sacrifice they made that she released them from their crystals. This caused chaos to seep through Etro's gate, which when Etro tried to fix this also sucked in Lightning. This is something that Yuel mentions that "wasn't supposed to happen, somebody who should have returned, did not".

- Lightning needed Noel to get Serah, so they could fight in the visible world while Lightning fights in the unvisible world. Lightning can't play around the visible world for long periods of time. Noel actually taking Caius' place solves nothing as is pointed out in a paradox ending. He would carry the curse of eternal life.

- Other stuff concerning Lightning will probably be addressed in the DLC, but going by what is ingame so far: Lightning would already be in Crystal Stasis when we end the fight with Caius, he mentions he already put Lightning to "sleep", but Noel and Serah don't believe him, to which Caius replies that "time in Valhalla doesn't flow as it should, what happens in your future already happened in my past". I'm sure the DLC will touch on this, but I have no reason to doubt Caius, can't think of an instance where he actually lied to the main cast when it mattered, just them not believing him.

Lightning mentions she can see the whole timeline so she probably knew some of the shit that was going to happen and going by an interview with the lead writer she put herself into crystal stasis to maintain hope after the sacrifice Serah made by dying. What this vision was, is also unknown at this time. It could very well just be that she saw the fusion of the 2 worlds before it actually happened. Timeflow stops after this and so would "seeing into the future", which was Caius' plan to free Yuel in the first place.

Hope this clears up some of the stuff.

I don't really have anything to add, but you actually see when Lightning sees the entire timeline in a Cutscene. It's the one where she first sees Etro's Throne and kneels down. She looks up and you see Lightning crying.

Also, Caius says that he kills Lightning, he didn't mention anything about sleep. Just wanted to add a bit of clarification.

[Appie]

He actually did mention that she sleeps, shortly after the line that he killed her.

@1:50 in the video

[Alkar]

The Datalog makes it clear that Lightning turned herself to crystal. It's kinda obvious that Caius didn't kill her and had no reason to turn her to crystal and put her on Etro's throne.

[vadre]

http://shatterheart.net/games/finalf...nshots0108.jpg

Little question, was this ever explained? Seemed odd to even include it with no relevance to anything.

[niwaar]

Where did that come from? I do not remember her being in the white room in 13. Although it makes sense she was alive and well in 13.

[Burningthought]

Where did that come from? I do not remember her being in the white room in 13. Although it makes sense she was alive and well in 13.

The only real evidence of Yeul in XIII was via the datalog. That SS came from XIII-2 obviously, but I don't remember exactly when it came up.

Also, I was being retarded in my last post, whoever was 100% right about the killed/sleep thing.

[vadre]

It's from the cutscene where lightning falls into valhalla, a bunch of pictures and things flash up recalling the ending of XIII and the original 6 squaring off vs. orphan. That's one of the pictures that comes up and I remember it from a trailer before the game came out, but nothing about it ever came up.

I don't really see why she'd be near Orphan's room, she has no relationship with any of the fal'cie

[Burningthought]

It's from the cutscene where lightning falls into valhalla, a bunch of pictures and things flash up recalling the ending of XIII and the original 6 squaring off vs. orphan. That's one of the pictures that comes up and I remember it from a trailer before the game came out, but nothing about it ever came up.

I don't really see why she'd be near Orphan's room, she has no relationship with any of the fal'cie

We all know that there was a Yeul during the time, her being in Orphan's room doesn't have to signify anything. I think it was just a visual representation of what was being told.

[Bregor]

I've only seen the normal ending and the "Fate and Freedom" paradox ending, currently at like 140/160 but a lot about the plot bothers me:

- I didn't like the ending, but I can appreciate it. I enjoy more traditional endings that turn out happy for everybody (think FFVIII) and I was hoping for some sort of condensed version of a "true timeline" where everything is normal. I guess I'll have to wait for XIII-3 to see if we ever get that. That said, it was pretty badass, I got the feeling Hope is about to pull some epic shit. And if XIII-3 has our heroes throwing down with Bhunivelze or the Maker, it'll be worth it.
- I got real tired of Noel not wanting to kill Caius. If he wanted to protect his Yuel, and every Yuel for that matter, just kill him and become the new Heart of Chaos. If that's not reason enough, Caius wants to destroy humanity and time itself. Seems like maybe you should want to kill him. Noel does get bonus points for hating on Snow though.
- It also seems silly to build Bhunivelze. Yes, life on Gran Pulse is rough, but it's just as vulnerable as Cocoon was to falling and killing everyone inside. Seems like if they had put all the Academy's efforts into taming the wilds of Pulse, they'd be a lot better off. Also, why not build a new support structure for Cocoon, then rescue Fang and Vanille? Maybe one that couldn't be chipped away by Miniflan?
- I was really hoping there was some big reveal for Alyssa. Her story line with her death during the Purge and the paradox that saved her was okay, but I was hoping for something more, like her secretly being a l'Cie or Fal'Cie, or manipulating Hope or something.
- The plot was sort of incoherent for me. Every time they talked about a paradox, changing the future, changing the past, etc., I got a serious "a wizard did it" vibe for how lazy it was. Also the fact that almost all of the optional Historia Crux locations don't affect the main plot was kind of a letdown.
- Overall, the game was just too easy. I spent almost no time farming for materials or CP, and none of the story fights (or any enemies for that matter) are difficult. I haven't tried Jihl's DLC yet though.

[Burningthought]

I've only seen the normal ending and the "Fate and Freedom" paradox ending, currently at like 140/160 but a lot about the plot bothers me:

- I didn't like the ending, but I can appreciate it. I enjoy more traditional endings that turn out happy for everybody (think FFVIII) and I was hoping for some sort of condensed version of a "true timeline" where everything is normal. I guess I'll have to wait for XIII-3 to see if we ever get that. That said, it was pretty badass, I got the feeling Hope is about to pull some epic shit. And if XIII-3 has our heroes throwing down with Bhunivelze or the Maker, it'll be worth it.
- I got real tired of Noel not wanting to kill Caius. If he wanted to protect his Yuel, and every Yuel for that matter, just kill him and become the new Heart of Chaos. If that's not reason enough, Caius wants to destroy humanity and time itself. Seems like maybe you should want to kill him. Noel does get bonus points for hating on Snow though.
- It also seems silly to build Bhunivelze. Yes, life on Gran Pulse is rough, but it's just as vulnerable as Cocoon was to falling and killing everyone inside. Seems like if they had put all the Academy's efforts into taming the wilds of Pulse, they'd be a lot better off. Also, why not build a new support structure for Cocoon, then rescue Fang and Vanille? Maybe one that couldn't be chipped away by Miniflan?
- I was really hoping there was some big reveal for Alyssa. Her story line with her death during the Purge and the paradox that saved her was okay, but I was hoping for something more, like her secretly being a l'Cie or Fal'Cie, or manipulating Hope or something.
- The plot was sort of incoherent for me. Every time they talked about a paradox, changing the future, changing the past, etc., I got a serious "a wizard did it" vibe for how lazy it was. Also the fact that almost all of the optional Historia Crux locations don't affect the main plot was kind of a letdown.
- Overall, the game was just too easy. I spent almost no time farming for materials or CP, and none of the story fights (or any enemies for that matter) are difficult. I haven't tried Jihl's DLC yet though.

I think they had to build it because they didn't have the tech to keep it from falling completely, there were fissures in the base and stuff. Noel's timeline is one where Cocoon collapsed and there was no Bhunivelze, and everyone but him pretty much died. Hope came up with the idea of building an Arc, populating it, and sending it off before Cocoon collapsed. The point was so that people could live their lives in peace and not have to worry about the wilds of Pulse. As of present time, there are still fal'cie roaming Pulse and lots of paradoxes that are occurring, so there's quite a few reasons for the Academy to build a new Cocoon.

Bleh that came out a little messy, i'll probably rewrite it later to sound better.

[Bregor]

Bleh that came out a little messy, i'll probably rewrite it later to sound better.

No I gotcha, still just seems weird to me, the inherent risk involved with keeping it afloat.

[Vaspinne]

- I was really hoping there was some big reveal for Alyssa. Her story line with her death during the Purge and the paradox that saved her was okay, but I was hoping for something more, like her secretly being a l'Cie or Fal'Cie, or manipulating Hope or something.

Do the Academia 4xx paradox ending. Albeit, it'll probably add more questions than answers

[Carth]

- I got real tired of Noel not wanting to kill Caius. If he wanted to protect his Yuel, and every Yuel for that matter, just kill him and become the new Heart of Chaos. If that's not reason enough, Caius wants to destroy humanity and time itself. Seems like maybe you should want to kill him. Noel does get bonus points for hating on Snow though.

Noel didn't want to kill Caius because Yuel wanted to be with him, and honestly in a world where there's only yourself, another guy, and another girl, I can't blame Noel for seeing Caius as the one person he couldn't kill, though storyline-wise it's also wrong to kill Caius as well, which is explained in a Paradox ending.

- The plot was sort of incoherent for me. Every time they talked about a paradox, changing the future, changing the past, etc., I got a serious "a wizard did it" vibe for how lazy it was. Also the fact that almost all of the optional Historia Crux locations don't affect the main plot was kind of a letdown.

The main plot is pretty consistent, but all of the sidequests and such are pretty pointless. The "a wizard did it" excuse can fall in with the paradox, though "If you change the future, you change the past" pretty much falls in with with the writer/director changing the usual rules of time travel, which I cannot fault since IRL we're not even close to being capable of time travel.

I think they had to build it because they didn't have the tech to keep it from falling completely, there were fissures in the base and stuff.

I believe that was the reason but I can't really get behind it. They built an entirely new planet for god's sake. Granted, building the Ark is a better idea than just reinforcing Cocoon's structure if only because the Ark doesn't have the dangerous living conditions, or if there was some douche who wanted to kill everyone and making Cocoon fall would be the easiest way.

[Ratatapa]

Need to tell Hope that Etros killed his mom