Dumbass newfag animoo questions

[Silenka]

Purist dub hater too, also can speak Japanese, and the girls are shrill because omg that's actually what some of them sound like in realsies. D: Pretty sure Japanese voices are just naturally more high-pitched than European/American. What's really annoying is when some dub actors who clearly can't hit that level of pitch try to emulate it *shudder*

The reason I really don't like dubs is that acting takes skill - a lot of skill. Most dub actors do not exhibit even a passable level of voice acting skill, let alone good quality. However, because voice acting is a HUGE deal in Japan (that is, of course, where all the anime is being made), the voices are usually good... unless they pick someone untested who turns out to have a really grating voice. For instance, I could barely stand Madoka's voice in Madoka Magica, it was really annoying. Whether it was the seiyuu's fault or she was directed to speak that way I don't know. So yeah, Japanese voice acting can sometimes fail too, but not nearly on the large scale dub voices fail.

I know that's mostly because America does not have an anime industry to speak of and good actors willing to devote their time to it (I said as much in a previous post). I also know that not supporting dubs means dubs aren't ever going to get better. There are also a lot of people who really hate reading subs. But personally, given a choice between listening to the original and listening to a grating, lazy dub...well, I'm not going to spend my time on the one I inherently don't enjoy, that's for sure. So I guess that's why I'm a purist. I think that back in the day purists were much worse than they are now: at least now purists have a solidly enormous body of evidence to point at when they say they'd much rather there not be a dub at all.

[hey]

Purist dub hater too, also can speak Japanese, and the girls are shrill because omg that's actually what some of them sound like in realsies. D: Pretty sure Japanese voices are just naturally more high-pitched than European/American. What's really annoying is when some dub actors who clearly can't hit that level of pitch try to emulate it *shudder*

The reason I really don't like dubs is that acting takes skill - a lot of skill. Most dub actors do not exhibit even a passable level of voice acting skill, let alone good quality. However, because voice acting is a HUGE deal in Japan (that is, of course, where all the anime is being made), the voices are usually good... unless they pick someone untested who turns out to have a really grating voice. For instance, I could barely stand Madoka's voice in Madoka Magica, it was really annoying. Whether it was the seiyuu's fault or she was directed to speak that way I don't know. So yeah, Japanese voice acting can sometimes fail too, but not nearly on the large scale dub voices fail.

This so much. The day the US has actual schools available to train VAs, and people with shitty voices can no longer get jobs as VAs, is the day i'll consider watching dubs. Until then, i'll stick the the JP voices, where some idiot can't just walk in for an audition read a few lines, and be hired for a major roll 5 minutes later.

[arus2001]

Well, some make it sound like NA dubs are the equivalent of late-90's video game Engrish. I'm okay with suggesting people try to watch something in the original language. I'm not so okay with original language or GTFO. Many of us here may be used to and okay with reading subs, but I'm also mindful of the fact it pretty much requires 22 minutes of direct attention to the screen. To that end, I can see the appeal in dubs. You can look away for a second and not completely miss a line or two.

Tragedy of Adult Swim's time slot and lacking dedication aside, if the choice is between 150k viewers watching a televised dub and, of that pool, maybe half that being willing to watch the sub (Or be like me and do both), I'd much rather strive for the first option. Things are only going to improve with more exposure and not trying to keep the genre niche. We might not like Crispin Freeman being in everything, but demanding Morgan Freeman isn't just going to make it happen, either. Actors can be greedy sons of bitches and it's a bit saddening to see those who have put a lot in the field being classified as those who couldn't cut it elsewhere. Maybe, just maybe, they also like anime and want it to be better and more popular.

[Kaylia]

As for dub vs. sub, get over it. Damn near every time I see a purist hater, they can't speak a lick of Japanese but try to profess some spirit of moonspeak emotion is lost in translation. You never see them whining about the impractically high-pitched females or the gravelly-voiced-mid-constipated-shitting males. Too often that first impression is made where if the dub VA doesn't sound at all like the JP, it's auto-fail. There's some truth behind the hardcore fan being the genre's own worst enemy when it comes to expanding the media. Things are better than they used to be. Some shows just won't fly in the States as they're too far out there, or dare I say, sucked to begin with. The funny thing about entertainment is not everyone likes the same things.

If you've got netflix, just highlight a show, read its summary, and decide if you want to give it a peek. Some shows take a few episodes to really get their legs. As another possible mindfuck, sometimes the JP censor themselves. The more you worry about things not there, the more likely you are to miss things that are.

Did you read the thread or just came to bitch about "purist hater"? The problem with dubbing isn't limited to anime, it's present in every media, and in every language. Time, money, and talents may overcome certain issue, but why bother when it's unlikely to even rival the original?

Watch any episodes of the Simpsons, South park or Futurama in another language and tell me it's just as good. It's the same issue all over. The contents might be the same, but the characters' personality is often altered drastically. Grunts, specific accents, and speech patterns that made the original cast unique are all lost.

The only people who enjoy these dubs are the one who refuses to listen the shows in another language than their own. Most who actually experienced the original at some point won't go back to dubbing.


You don't need to know an awful lot of Japanese to pick certain details. It probably won't happen the first time you watch something in Japanese, but not being fluent doesn't mean you won't get anything.

[Kaylia]

Well, some make it sound like NA dubs are the equivalent of late-90's video game Engrish. I'm okay with suggesting people try to watch something in the original language. I'm not so okay with original language or GTFO. Many of us here may be used to and okay with reading subs, but I'm also mindful of the fact it pretty much requires 22 minutes of direct attention to the screen. To that end, I can see the appeal in dubs. You can look away for a second and not completely miss a line or two.

As opposed to what? 22 minutes of not looking at your TV and missing half of the dialogues because you're focusing on something else? Why even bother if you're not planning to watch.

[hey]

As opposed to what? 22 minutes of not looking at your TV and missing half of the dialogues because you're focusing on something else?

As opposed to posting on bg while watching, getting all of the dialogue, but maybe missing some of what is going on on screen.

Of course this still isn't really hard to do, if you don't suck at reading subs. A lot of people do other small things like laundry, cleaning, posting on bg, etc while watching tv. It's not difficult to do such things and still pay enough attention to a show to not really miss anything important.

[arus2001]

Different != Worse.

Ultimately, it's whatever director's responsibility to remain as faithful to the material as possible and tell the story. I have no doubt the corporate dub machine on things like Simpsons and other generally translated media is aiming for as much money for as little effort as possible. We, the viewers, don't win here. But to play on my earlier point that some VAs happen to be fans of the anime genre, even if they may not be the best, I would rather them try as opposed to doing nothing and just hope some super duper anime otaku approved VA school pops up and shits out women in their 40s who can grunt like 10 year old girls.

Big picture, the anime dub scene won't improve much until America's domestic television animation raises its own standards. That includes the earlier mentioned cartoons are just for kids stigma. Pre-teens don't obsess about this crap like some of you guys are. To that end, sometimes studios can get away with it, budget constraints or not. Go start that school if it's such a concern. Or snag that super easy walk-on role and show us how its done. I don't like the growing pains, either, but I want to support those trying.

[hey]

Big picture, the anime dub scene won't improve much until America's domestic television animation raises its own standards.

I'm ok with this. There's no shortage of quality subs, so i can't really give a shit if the quality of dubs never gets better.

[Elcura]

I mostly prefer subs and original languages because as most people have said, there's a lot lost in translation and re-dubbing. But I don't hate all dubs, I couldn't imagine watching certain shows in Japanese because of some legendary dubs and in games I tend to favour English over anything else (though in games having things lost in translation isn't a big deal). My biggest concern is basically the quality/delivery of the lines, as a lot of dubs tend to sound strained and unnatural which makes them very hard to listen to (and often the writing doesn't help, especially after being translated). On that side of things, you're usually getting something much better with subs.

Also what Silenka said about Japanese voices not being perfect is totally true, but to be honest it took like 10+ years of watching anime to be able to recognize a good voice from a bad one so I wouldn't say it was a huge problem for most people. Not being able to recognize faults (as easily) is one of the good things about watching subs for me. I probably wouldn't like anime nearly as much if I could.

Big picture, the anime dub scene won't improve much until America's domestic television animation raises its own standards. That includes the earlier mentioned cartoons are just for kids stigma. Pre-teens don't obsess about this crap like some of you guys are. To that end, sometimes studios can get away with it, budget constraints or not. Go start that school if it's such a concern. Or snag that super easy walk-on role and show us how its done. I don't like the growing pains, either, but I want to support those trying.

I don't know about this. I think if it's made for an English speaking audience the voices have room to be a lot better and the writing isn't getting in the way of delivery, so it sounds more natural and flows better. Also jokes and timing are better etc. Point is it's less of an uphill battle to get something good than it is for re-dubbing something. The main problem is America's perception of cartoons/anime.

[Kaylia]

It's not difficult to do such things and still pay enough attention to a show to not really miss anything important.

Considering how much fly above the average person's head, I'm going to disagree with your statement.

There is obviously a ton of shitty shows that don't require (or deserve) more attention than the bare minimum, but it usually pay off to look for details.

Different != Worse.

You're making the assumption that my resentment for dubs come from the difference with the original rather than the quality loss. I wouldn't speak with such confidence if I didn't have to watch (french) dub for the first 16 years of my life. It's because I could re-experience everything in the original language later that I was able to see how much is actually loss.

While "quality" is always going to remains a subjective topic, it's ridiculous to think that it's just a matter of taste. Subtitles are the best way to preserve the integrity of the original work while allowing everyone to understand what is going on. There is no information loss.

Understanding the original language > subtitles > dub
This is true 99.9% of the time, and the rare exception are generally notable because the translation project was bigger than the original project or that the director had an active part in the development of both version.

And hell, more often then not, original work (novel, games, manga) > adaption for the same reason.

Ultimately, it's whatever director's responsibility to remain as faithful to the material as possible and tell the story. I have no doubt the corporate dub machine on things like Simpsons and other generally translated media is aiming for as much money for as little effort as possible. We, the viewers, don't win here. But to play on my earlier point that some VAs happen to be fans of the anime genre, even if they may not be the best, I would rather them try as opposed to doing nothing and just hope some super duper anime otaku approved VA school pops up and shits out women in their 40s who can grunt like 10 year old girls.

It's the director's responsibility, but he still has to works around limitation that didn't exist originally. Lip syncing for example force them into very specific dialogue, while subtitles offers the possibility to go for more a literal translation. The timing (especially for joke) are also very difficult to works around since they aren't told exactly the same in different language.

[Zilong]

low blow, but I'm just gonna mention regional accents just because.

To be fair, seiyuu work doesn't grant fame or fortune even in Japan where it is the source of all the anime, so I can't really imagine anyone in the US doing voicework for anything but a last resort to begin with. Until that changes, I doubt anyone would really strive their best to be a dub voice actor, frankly because the path is paved by bad choices in acting career and broken dreams to begin with. Of course, there are exception for those who did it for love of the genre and whatnot, but looking at your guys' opinion of vic or JYB, they're probably not very good at it.

But yeah, we've had this discussions way too much, and I doubt either side would relent. I still think people who like dubs are fucking philistine, but it's not as if my opinion are gonna change their opinion, or the fact that they're fucking philistine.

[Silenka]

I think people who don't speak Japanese are taking dubs at face value rather than realizing what kind of work and rewriting has to actually go into them, which is also part of what makes them a hundred times worse than understanding the original language/subs with translation notes. I'm not trying to attack dubs right now, just trying to give more info and understanding to people who might not speak Japanese.

Anime is obviously a completely Japanese product. That being said:

-Suffixes like -chan, -san, -sama etc are a super easy way of defining character relationships early on. So is polite language vs blunt language, which doesn't even have a good parallel in English or, honestly, in most other European languages. I feel like I've heard at least one dub where the suffixes were retained, but I could be wrong, and either way it would sound incredibly weird. Suffice to say that in a dub, you automatically lose a layer of communication between the characters just because it's not in Japanese anymore. Good example is Kenshin in Rurouni Kenshin who almost always speaks incredibly overly humbly to the point of silliness even, that's impossible to convey in a dub.

-Any reference to Japanese festivals (golden week, tanabata), local dialects and stereotypes (ie kansaiben/people, think Osaka from Azumanga) meet one of two fates: they get translated rote and that stuff is completely lost on those who are unfamiliar with Japan, or they get vaguely glossed over with new localized terms like vacation or general festival. This is often not okay on both counts, as there is almost always some meaning to the festival or someone having a particular dialect. I could cite a million examples, but Haruhi's tanabata ep is a good one.

-Puns. Character makes a pun? Forget it. You'll never hear it, it will be replaced with a (usually much less funny and forced-sounding) localized joke. Most Japanese puns do not translate into other languages at all, as you might imagine. In Fushigi Yuugi in the first few eps Miaka makes a joke with suteki sounding like stick (sutikki), I don't even remember how they did it in English but it would obviously have to be different. Then she makes a reference to SMAP (popular Japanese boyband) and that would either have to be changed or not understood as well.

-Mannerisms. These are more acted rather than spelled out but cultural mannerisms and the things other characters say about them can be lost (how did they even translate hikkikomori in Welcome to NHK? shut-in? but that doesn't convey the whole implication). If someone says 'that guy is a NEET', we don't have to change that in the dub, but the casual foreign viewer would have to look it up since the definition is already known to the Japanese and isn't going to get explained in the anime.

-Names. Dub can either retain the originals or change them into something more pronounceable to foreigners. Japanese is not a difficult language to pronounce correctly, unlike French (imo), so the lack of attempt most dub actors make to even pronounce the names correctly is a slight on the entire medium. A Japanese name can end up sounding completely different in the hands of a non-native speaker who doesn't put forth basic effort to learn to pronounce it.

[edit] Totally forgot an obvious one

-Speech mannerisms. Like Naruto's 'dattebayo' and Rozen Maiden's Suiseiseki's 'desu', some speech quirks are impossible to translate, and when they are (badly) translated it's annoying to everyone involved. While the stuff isn't that bad in Japanese (dattebayo is kinda pushing it but stuff like saying 'desu' where you normally wouldn't is, while abnormal, not outlandish), hearing Naruto say 'Believe it!' every 5 mins is just plain obnoxious.

Have to go to class now or else I would think of more but that's basically the gist. There is so much lost in an import it's not even funny, and the average viewer likely doesn't even realize it.

[Kaelan?]

^ What he said. There are some anime in particular, like SZS, Minami-ke or Mushishi that I can't even begin to imagine how you'd watch dubbed/localized. You'd be missing out on the vast majority of what's actually there just due to translation.

[Akiyama]

Late to this, but fuck off if you don't like Vic. Dude's awesome as hell. :3

And there's some anime I refuse to watch subbed and absolutely need dubbed. Blue Gender is definitely one of them. Bebop/FMA were both good as dubs as well, though I'd have watched them with subs too.

SZS for the fucking win.

Also.. Star Drive in JP is beyond fucking hilarious.

[Silenka]

If you consider 'awesome as hell' stalking and flirting with underage girls, sure...awesome...

His 'fame' went to his head and, though he preaches Christianity wherever he can (to the general annoyance of others after they've heard it a billion times), I've heard some pretty awful things about how he conducts himself around his fans (particularly young teens who cosplay his characters) from friends of mine who are still in his fanbase, and if you look around on the internet you can see similar accounts. I guess it doesn't help that he almost has a cultish following of fangirls and it's honestly kinda scary (I think they even have a name for themselves but idr what it is). Like I said before, one con I went to devoted literally two nights (7pm to midnight fri/sat) to his autograph signings...and there was a line a mile long both nights. I used to really like him myself and counted myself as one of those fans (I've even sat with him at a con and chatted about random stuff and had him say Ed's silly lines for me lol)...not so much anymore.

I know ED is the epitome of factual (lol) but they also have words to say about him as far as underage girls go
http://encyclopediadramatica.ch/Vic_Mignogna

tl;dr popular voice actor = creepy stalker of jailbait

You can argue that his voicework is good but it's really not comparatively, he only knows how to do one voice at varying pitches and levels of intensity. I liked him in FMA but he still wasn't the shining star of the cast as far as voicework goes. The way he acts because he's super-famous in the anime industry is really obnoxious and unnecessary. So I'm not really seeing the awesome, personally.

[Zilong]

Oh right, christianity, I remember my organizer friend telling me how he demands a sunday morning slot for preaching on Kawaii-Kon

But seriously? Being "super famous" among fucking philistines in an industry whose bubble burst 5 years ago is hardly anything to write home about.

[arus2001]

I dunno, if dude sets 2 nights to sign and there's super long lines for both, one might argue he's giving fans something they want. Sure, it may feed an ego. No, I have no idea if he's a pedobear.

As for things lost in translation, if something like a festival is little more than an excuse to see the characters in some alternate outfits, I'm gonna be blunt and say your average viewer probably won't give a shit. If there's been some definite build up to such an event, though, and it's a focal plot element, then yes, I put it on the director to try and convey the importance of the event. Honorifics have otherwise been something I've been iffy on, or how they just tend to address people in general. I don't call my older siblings "big sister" and the like. I use their name. Aside from the occasional sis and bro, I imagine most everyone else does the same. Referencing a specific character is nonetheless achieved, and spazzing over a -chan instead of a -dono or whatever can be pretty anal in its own right when actual inflection can depict (a lack of) respect.

I can understand the mispronunciation of names, especially when dealing with people who can't actually speak the language. Still, I'd put that on the director to hammer it out with the VAs to get it right. Dialects can be trickier, yes, but not impossible to work around. Puns, regardless of what is actually said, have a spirit of intent. For example, the Durarara dub still jokes about Mikado's last name sounding like a brand of refrigerator. Personally, I think Kenmore or whatever other brands here, but it is a general enough joke to get the point across. Saying something like a character's name sound like stick carries its own intent, which while unable to directly port to a different language, can be rewritten to maintain a spirit of teasing or condescension (assuming that the intent of the speaker). Things like this can still happen without compromising the growth of characters, but running gags do warrant some higher consideration of preservation.

Ultimately, though, I'm of the mind that shows so heavily culturalized where this can't happen without butchering things don't make good dub fodder, nor are they likely to be widely well-received outside of the country of origin. To that end, it's almost better to play things in an alternate universe (I want to say Bleach isn't "Japanese enough" when depicting Karakura as an example, despite some episodes using the holidays as an excuse to see Rukia in a kimono or something) or with enough of a time offset to current expectations. If literal, word for word, translations had to be done and enforced, dubbing wouldn't be possible at all, and I'm not just talking about trying to fit to lips, but things like how one word in English is otherwise a sentence in Japanese. Though lip reworking is something I wish studios would consider reworking if needed, but I suspect it also purist blasphemy for daring to touch the original art.

But yeah, those set in their ways aren't likely to be changing their minds here. However, I just can't quite get behind the notion that dub viewers are automatically missing out on major, pertinent details just because it's a dub. VA quality is another matter entirely, and by the admission of some, the JP have their own shitty actors.

[Kaylia]

Referencing a specific character is nonetheless achieved, and spazzing over a -chan instead of a -dono or whatever can be pretty anal in its own right when actual inflection can depict (a lack of) respect.

Isn't it exactly why subs are favored in the first place? Having the original voice allow you to catch these inflections that get butchered too often.

It's seriously not that hard to understand emotions expressed in another language, even if it require some adjustment at time.

But yeah, those set in their ways aren't likely to be changing their minds here. However, I just can't quite get behind the notion that dub viewers are automatically missing out on major, pertinent details just because it's a dub. VA quality is another matter entirely, and by the admission of some, the JP have their own shitty actors.

You're not missing out on anything major, you're simply getting a lesser experience that range from fucking terrible to decent. If they weren't systematically worse, there would be no debate.

Ultimately, it will always be a "case by case" debate, but statistically...screw dubbing. I would rather buy lottery tickets than gamble on a good dub.

[Correction]

Speech mannerisms. Like Naruto's 'dattebayo' and Rozen Maiden's Suiseiseki's 'desu', some speech quirks are impossible to translate, and when they are (badly) translated it's annoying to everyone involved. While the stuff isn't that bad in Japanese (dattebayo is kinda pushing it but stuff like saying 'desu' where you normally wouldn't is, while abnormal, not outlandish)

Losing this shit in translation is no loss. It's fucking annoying one-dimensional bullshit.

[Akiyama]

Naruto's dub is absolutely horrendous, but Naruto's mannerisms from the pre-timeskip bullshit was annoying as fuck to me in general, so I don't really give a damn if it's dubbed or subbed. It was annoying no matter what.

Yes, things are lost in translation between a dub and sub in a series (such as Eden of the East, some stuff only sub watchers (since it's explained in TL's) or actual Japanese), but it's really not that big of a deal unless you're super anal about it.

As for Vic and his pandering to 'underage girls' and 'feeding his massive popularity'.. as Zilong said.. the anime industry, especially in the US.. hasn't really taken off as much as people thought it would. It's hard to find on TV nowadays and some places straight up closed up shop. Congrats to him, he's 'super popular' in a shrinking industry. Hooray? Some people just love him still for his voicework with Ed, and I actually liked his Ed. I don't care if he panders to the audience, though. He's got a great voice (singing wise, IMO) and I can deal with the few dubs I've seen him in.

And lol @ the ED entry. They really find ways to make shit as funny and trolltastic as possible. He's eccentric for sure, but.. meh. I'd rather hear him over Bosch any day of the week, that's for sure.