Dumbass newfag animoo questions

[Judai]

I can't speak any Japanese (though I have learned some words from watching so much anime) and I HATE dubs. The thing that pisses me off the most is the loss of emotion in the voice for so many dubs. It sounds like the English VAs are just reading and not actually acting. It was said but a ton of the jokes also get changed into retarded NA jokes that don't fit and in some cases they alter them to a more "child-like" joke because they apparently don't understand their audience. I have tried to watch some dubs lately and even if I watch the dubbed track before ever hearing the JP audio I usually can't last 10m watching it. It's obvious they don't care about their work and just want to have some English voices so they can sell copies to people who don't want to read subs. Most of the time the voices don't even fit the character either or they change the way they speak, thinking that the NA audience will relate better or even worse, give them a retarded as fuck accent and make some character from Texas for no reason.

The good subbers usually explain the puns and language jokes and even some of the historical references and such anyways and they do it better then the dubbers would.

At first it can be hard to keep up with some shows but you can just rewind 5s and read it again if you miss something, just like if you didn't hear it properly. If your reason is because you don't want to stare at the screen for 22m then why are you watching something in the first place? I can multitask while watching anime, it's just usually during a slow part or something that isn't keeping my attention anyways.

[Kaylia]

^
You can't rewind when it's on your TV (no way I could follow an episode of SZS or tatami galaxy without pause), but other than that I agree.

[Silenka]

Losing this shit in translation is no loss. It's fucking annoying one-dimensional bullshit.

The problem is it's only sometimes lost in translation. The rest of the time the dubbers try to interject their own catchphrase (like Believe it!) which is, in my opinion, much worse than listening to the original's version (which is usually not quite as offensively annoying, and especially if you can 'tune out' the actual words and just read the subs).

What's more of an issue though is when other characters make fun of the offending character's speech quirks, which doesn't happen a ton but still does happen in some shows. If they haven't been translated from the outset, it's kinda hard to run with that later on or even explain it. Quick, replace it with meaningless dialogue!

Congrats to him, he's 'super popular' in a shrinking industry. Hooray?

That's the joke. His overall fame isn't that great in the grand scheme of things but he acts like he's entitled to everything, even going so far as to spit back his own interpretations of the characters he plays to his fans like they're facts straight from the creators (lol Fai isn't super gay what?). That's very presumptuous of him and his lack of humbleness rubs me the wrong way.

But anyway, enough of personal attacks mode, if you like him that's fine, I just wondered if you/others knew how big a douchebag he's become over the years.

[Caiyuo]

Wasn't aware but it's really not a thing for me either way since his appeal is limited to his voice acting for me, but if Mary Elizabeth McGlynn was a horrible bitch or something that might actually make me sad. From her interviews she seems to be awesome, though.

[Silenka]

As for things lost in translation, if something like a festival is little more than an excuse to see the characters in some alternate outfits, I'm gonna be blunt and say your average viewer probably won't give a shit. If there's been some definite build up to such an event, though, and it's a focal plot element, then yes, I put it on the director to try and convey the importance of the event.

I wasn't talking about average festivals (there's a festival ep in many shows) or dress-up time. I know those don't matter, and more often than not it's just some generic festival. I was referring to instances when cultural knowledge - stuff every Japanese person knows since they're small, but isn't apparent to foreigners - is key. This does happen a lot actually, I was just using festivals as an example.

Here's a good example: In Clannad S1, when Nagisa goes back to school for the first time, she says she feels like Urashima Tarou. Even if you say that name in a dub, it will not be understood by a foreigner unfamiliar with the folktale. The entire point of that line, and the feelings of the character, were missed because of the cultural gap. The dubber will either leave it the same and hope people do their own research or have to replace it with a Euro/Western folktale analogy (in this case Rip Van Winkle I guess), assuming there even is one. When there isn't a good analogy though, then they're forced to drastically alter the script in order to keep conversation flowing in a way non-JPs can understand. I guess I find it hard to sacrifice authenticity for a safe cover-up that loses what the original writer intended. In extreme cases, the whole atmosphere of a scene can be completely altered or lost because of this type of thing.

And before you say that one line is nitpicky, think of the shows like Gintama that rely completely on Japanese pop culture knowledge. I know Gintama's been released here but don't know if it has a dub and how it would even be dubbed unless all the pop culture references were replaced with American ones - but I don't even understand how that would work. Though you did argue that some shows are not good dub fodder, and I'd put Gintama on the top of that list.

Honorifics have otherwise been something I've been iffy on, or how they just tend to address people in general. I don't call my older siblings "big sister" and the like. I use their name. Aside from the occasional sis and bro, I imagine most everyone else does the same. Referencing a specific character is nonetheless achieved, and spazzing over a -chan instead of a -dono or whatever can be pretty anal in its own right when actual inflection can depict (a lack of) respect.

But there's always the time when someone tries to get too friendly with a character by calling her '-chan' even though he shows no other outward sign of trying to get closer, and the girl reacts by saying 'you're being too familiar' or something. How do you translate that? Not very well, in any case. It's nearly impossible. Same with when an upstart arrogantly calls himself 'ore-sama' or refuses to call a superior by his appropriate title and other characters react negatively toward him. We just don't have the same system of address that they do. No, missing the honorifics isn't that important if it's not important to the story, but at least half the time there are scenes where they are important and constantly watching clumsily-dubbed scenes like that is really annoying since they almost never make any sense in the end.

Puns, regardless of what is actually said, have a spirit of intent. For example, the Durarara dub still jokes about Mikado's last name sounding like a brand of refrigerator. Personally, I think Kenmore or whatever other brands here, but it is a general enough joke to get the point across. Saying something like a character's name sound like stick carries its own intent, which while unable to directly port to a different language, can be rewritten to maintain a spirit of teasing or condescension (assuming that the intent of the speaker). Things like this can still happen without compromising the growth of characters, but running gags do warrant some higher consideration of preservation.

Oh, suteki is a word that means 'amazing' or something, not a character's name. It was a complete word-pun and not a situational one involving another character. When it involves another character it's probably a lot easier to make up a joke about them to replace the old pun since there is a lot of material to draw from than to simply create an appropriate joke out of thin air. Running gags, too, are really hard to preserve if they revolve around Japanese words, which inherently won't be understood by a dub's target audience. That kind of thing would also have to be replaced.

But yeah, those set in their ways aren't likely to be changing their minds here. However, I just can't quite get behind the notion that dub viewers are automatically missing out on major, pertinent details just because it's a dub.

And I can't understand how you can watch something knowing much of the creator's original intent is probably lost due to the many reasons I listed and still not care. I understand that dubs are enjoyable in their own way to some but in my mind, it's like stripping the original work and remaking it into something for a different audience. It's not the same anymore and in most cases comes out worse than it originally was. I guess the big difference here is that some people watch anime as an art form and some purely watch it for entertainment. Those who feel it's an art form are going to be bothered by small changes to the original, while those who are viewing for entertainment only aren't going to care so much about a changed word or missed intent. From what you've said (that detail changes are nitpicky and trivial) you seem to fall in the latter category, but I think most purists are in the former.

Sub vs dub is always going to be a competition because each side always sees the merit in only their own side. Personally, in the end I don't care what other people watch, but I at least always feel like trying to point out what dub viewers might be missing - in many cases it's a large chunk of the intent and atmosphere of the show, and that makes me a little bit sad inside.

[Zilong]

The fact that we're even discussing this right now gives more merit to dubbing than it deserves.

[Judai]

^
You can't rewind when it's on your TV (no way I could follow an episode of SZS or tatami galaxy without pause), but other than that I agree.

Get TIVO or DVR or something! I don't watch any anime on TV though, I barely even watch TV shows on TV because I'm usually catching up during winter/summer break.

[Silenka]

Eh, I rarely talk at length about anything here, so I figured why not. I'm bad at debating so it's good practice at the very least.

[arus2001]

Some artists will throw a shit fit about their work being tweaked, sure. Some will just be glad its out there. Even without the audio element, viewers still have the visual to observe and derive opinions on the happening, but big picture involves the combination. For all the shit people throw at the Naruto dub, you can still watch it, see a kid who's been suffering for unknown reasons, eventually learning of a hidden power, and the subsequent growth of his character within Team 7 and beyond. Ohnoez, a nosebleed was edited out in response to harem jutsu! Story ruined!

Every dub out there isn't butchering plots into the ground. Cases where that does happen is more likely an overwhelming minority and relics of the early days in the industry before Toonami and whatnot. Been here long enough to see Zilong basically parade that anything he doesn't like sucks or see Kaylia QQ the moment some fanservice appears. They're obviously going to be harder to please, but you also have some people who've preferred dubbed versions of programs. I haven't much touched on the point that the language a program is first heard in also sets some expectations. As a result, since this is all shit that comes out in Japan first, most people here and reading this will be hearing JP versions of current releases long before NA releases, if at all. But it's just easier to call people philistine and walk away as if Pokemon reflects the entirety of Japanese culture. Jersey Shore totally pegs the US, too. Esh. Anime wouldn't be the first place I'd send people to learn about Japanese culture. Hell, to anime outsiders/haters, it's all about lolis, mecha, and tentacle rape.

[Ksandra]

I hope Shakespeare is pissed that his work gets shortened all the fucking time.



seriously, shit is not that serious either way. seriousness.

[arus2001]

I thought about mentioning reiterations of Snow White and such throughout the ages, but stuff from Billy works, too.

[Silenka]

Well in Shakespeare's case we can't even identify how much of which story and which passages he wrote himself and which ones were added later by someone else anyway, so not much is lost there by default. In the modern day we have a very good record of exactly who is creating what and possibly even why, which is more than you can say for fairy tales and Shakespearean drama. I don't think making an argument based around that analogy makes much sense.

But like I said before if you don't take anime that seriously and see it as just another form of entertainment you can switch your brain off for, then of course it won't matter to you and you won't be able to see why it would matter to others. On the other hand, there are a bunch of people (I'm not sure if I would include myself, though I guess I am farther on the artform side than the purely entertainment side) who take anime way too seriously and do cry about any changes or cuts that don't detract from the story, because at that point it's no longer in its pristine form.

Anime is like any other artform really. Some people like to dissect every inch of it, some people just watch it for fun and others enjoy comparing it to other types of art. I know when I go to an art museum or a movie I'm just there to have fun but there are people who go there to seriously study filmography or perfect their thesis on Monet or whatever.

[Correction]

The problem is it's only sometimes lost in translation. The rest of the time the dubbers try to interject their own catchphrase (like Believe it!) which is, in my opinion, much worse than listening to the original's version (which is usually not quite as offensively annoying, and especially if you can 'tune out' the actual words and just read the subs).

Your level of tolerance will drop quickly as your proficiency in Japanese comprehension rises. At some point you have to accept that it's awful writing, and not the localization, that is to blame for the nuisance it creates. Rather than create an engaging character with a believable development arc, let's just give him/her a fucking speech impediment AND a catch phrase! BRILLIANT!

[Zilong]

But it's just easier to call people philistine and walk away as if Pokemon reflects the entirety of Japanese culture.

I always thought that Pokemon's underlying theme was the never-ending journey of self-improvement while striving for perfection through the guidance of the countless shinto deity that resides in this realm.

That and you really can't ignore his girth.

[Kaylia]

Some artists will throw a shit fit about their work being tweaked, sure. Some will just be glad its out there. Even without the audio element, viewers still have the visual to observe and derive opinions on the happening, but big picture involves the combination. For all the shit people throw at the Naruto dub, you can still watch it, see a kid who's been suffering for unknown reasons, eventually learning of a hidden power, and the subsequent growth of his character within Team 7 and beyond. Ohnoez, a nosebleed was edited out in response to harem jutsu! Story ruined!

Every dub out there isn't butchering plots into the ground. Cases where that does happen is more likely an overwhelming minority and relics of the early days in the industry before Toonami and whatnot. Been here long enough to see Zilong basically parade that anything he doesn't like sucks or see Kaylia QQ the moment some fanservice appears. They're obviously going to be harder to please, but you also have some people who've preferred dubbed versions of programs. I haven't much touched on the point that the language a program is first heard in also sets some expectations. As a result, since this is all shit that comes out in Japan first, most people here and reading this will be hearing JP versions of current releases long before NA releases, if at all. But it's just easier to call people philistine and walk away as if Pokemon reflects the entirety of Japanese culture. Jersey Shore totally pegs the US, too. Esh. Anime wouldn't be the first place I'd send people to learn about Japanese culture. Hell, to anime outsiders/haters, it's all about lolis, mecha, and tentacle rape.

Nobody here said the story would be ruined, we're simply saying that the dub version is going to be inferior. I'm not sure why you're resorting to this kind of extreme when no one here implied anything of the sort.

You're also insinuating that many prefer dubbed version, but let's be honest, how many actually gave sub a fair chance?

But it's just easier to call people philistine

As for dub vs. sub, get over it. Damn near every time I see a purist hater

I don't know, but isn't exactly what you do?

[mallister]

what, you mean it's NOT all about tentacle rape? wtf i've been doing all these years...

[arus2001]

...we're simply saying that the dub version is going to be inferior.

You're trying to pass that opinion as fact, which is pretty much the defining characteristic of my lack of love for the anti-dub crowd. They'll then go on to say things like, "I'll never watch a dub because I know it'll suck anyway." with the implication dub-watchers are inferior by proxy and should totally get with the program. I'm sorry if the desire to share tales with as many people as possible beyond their language of origin is lost on some, but that's why I'll argue for their existence. It can help fuel the imaginations of future artists and authors in a time where many schools are cutting art programs to make budgets work.

I started with dubs of things I saw on TV. Eventually, upon access to a good computer and internet connection, I started wanting more. Sometimes it was dubbed, sometimes not. Eventually, in my consumption, I got to the point where it was pretty much sub-only due to the often year+ delay in releases if a given program even manages to be picked up. Didn't hurt that I wound up taking a few years of college with the eventual goal toward animation, but what I came to know of the NA industry compared to my own interests eventually led to me scrapping that idea. Basically, I didn't want to be working movie special effects or shoveling out kiddy programs. Still, I had my share of conversations with fellow artists. Some were in it thinking they could strike it rich with one good idea. Some were basically striving to be the modern day bards by entertaining people. The two paths aren't mutually exclusive, but those in it for basically the love of art will probably say the same things I have. It's not like we don't acknowledge things can be lost or incapable of being translated, but it's a greater loss to not tell the story at all.

[Kaylia]

You're trying to pass that opinion as fact, which is pretty much the defining characteristic of my lack of love for the anti-dub crowd. They'll then go on to say things like, "I'll never watch a dub because I know it'll suck anyway." with the implication dub-watchers are inferior by proxy and should totally get with the program. I'm sorry if the desire to share tales with as many people as possible beyond their language of origin is lost on some, but that's why I'll argue for their existence. It can help fuel the imaginations of future artists and authors in a time where many schools are cutting art programs to make budgets work.

This is stupid, the debate is between sub and dub, not raw and dub. Or maybe we are talking about the illiterate and blind demographics?

Also, you seem to be confusing observations with opinions. It's ridiculous to discredit an argument based on this alone, especially when you haven't addressed any of the point in this thread.

And lastly, I'm certain I said multiples time that dub can be equals or superior (in some extreme case), but most won't be and you know it. There is already many explanation why it rarely happens, and why it's generally a bad idea to look for a dub when the sub exist.

I started with dubs of things I saw on TV. Eventually, upon access to a good computer and internet connection, I started wanting more. Sometimes it was dubbed, sometimes not. Eventually, in my consumption, I got to the point where it was pretty much sub-only due to the often year+ delay in releases if a given program even manages to be picked up. Didn't hurt that I wound up taking a few years of college with the eventual goal toward animation, but what I came to know of the NA industry compared to my own interests eventually led to me scrapping that idea. Basically, I didn't want to be working movie special effects or shoveling out kiddy programs. Still, I had my share of conversations with fellow artists. Some were in it thinking they could strike it rich with one good idea. Some were basically striving to be the modern day bards by entertaining people. The two paths aren't mutually exclusive, but those in it for basically the love of art will probably say the same things I have. It's not like we don't acknowledge things can be lost or incapable of being translated, but it's a greater loss to not tell the story at all.

Explain me why a story can't be told with "text"? I don't get where you're going with this.

Yes, dubs are probably more accessible for the same reason TV is more accessible than book, but it's ridiculous to encourage this kind of stupidity or defend it. If anything, subs should be encouraged.

[Zilong]

3 pages of this shit over horrible taste in animu delivery

I can hardly...

Spoiler: show

BELIEVE IT!

[arus2001]

Yes, dubs are probably more accessible for the same reason TV is more accessible than book, but it's ridiculous to encourage this kind of stupidity or defend it. If anything, subs should be encouraged.

Ding, accessibility. Spanish is a far more prominent language in America, but rare are the primarily Spanish programs outside of specialized networks. Believe it or not, some people don't feel they get the complete experience when having to read while watching. Call them dumb if it makes you feel better. Call it a step back in the concept of the medium when demanding the audio sounds like gibberish. I've even seen context notes while watching dubs. Shit's not gonna improve if you advocate companies not trying or insist people avoid them to later offer constructive criticism. Watching anime gets enough shit as a hobby to not need a sub-group within the fan base mocking those who don't do it their way. Lord knows I never tell people RL I watch the stuff unless I hear someone else bring it up. Stigma sucks. I want it to go away, but it's got the double whammy of being both foreign and animation.