Obamacare, Healthcare, etc.

**hey** · 2012-06-26 22:19

Originally Posted by SwampdonkeyPLD

Retaining free will is considered a "step back" now? God help us.

When the government tells you to pay for something, you pay for it. You have never had free will when it comes to this.

**Correction** · 2012-06-26 22:41

Originally Posted by Buffy

The ideal solution would be to give both groups what they want. I'm not sure how to provide that.

I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of how the law is supposed to work. It would be impossible to implement the law without the individual mandate. You cannot compromise here because without the provision the private insurance industry is going to pull out of the bargain.

**Kurokikaze** · 2012-06-26 22:47

Originally Posted by Buffy

The ideal solution would be to give both groups what they want. I'm not sure how to provide that.

double edit, after archibald's post below: We will know soon enough. Thursday is going to be a day of angst, either way.

So because you and a lot of other people can't come up with an alternative we should scrap the idea all together? When so much good comes out of it? What a crock of shit.

Also, you need to go reeducate yourself on what Socialism is. The problem with Healthcare Reform is not Socialism, it's Capitalism. The idea that keeping people alive/healthy should have an arbitrary for-profit middleman.

**Gwynplaine** · 2012-06-26 22:49

Nobody is sure what the result will be. My speculation is that they will strikedown certain parts of it, but not all. Something in the middle.

If they reject any potion of the law the left will absolutely snap and scream about corrupt illegitimate judges for years. If they uphold the entire law suddenly it won't be an issue.

**Kurokikaze** · 2012-06-26 22:51

Originally Posted by Gwynplaine

Nobody is sure what the result will be. My speculation is that they will strikedown certain parts of it, but not all. Something in the middle.

If they reject any potion of the law the left will absolutely snap and scream about corrupt illegitimate judges for years. If they uphold the entire law suddenly it won't be an issue.

The problem is that ACA will not and cannot survive without the mandate. If they removed just that they might as well kill the entire program.

I'm hoping when this does eventually happen we start gearing up to bring Single Payer for all. Fuck private insurance.

**Jer** · 2012-06-26 23:07

One of my friends on Facebook posted a link to a thread that was going on in hopes of proving his case against the health care plan. Instead, many of the people thought he was talking about the first reply which was as follows:

Spoiler: show

He kept getting praised for pointing it out to all the people against it. He was not amused.

**Kurokikaze** · 2012-06-26 23:23

Insurance company: We're not paying for that aspirin.

I laughed harder than I should at this.

**Talint** · 2012-06-26 23:24

The only socialism I see is corporate socialism.

**Mrbeansman** · 2012-06-27 03:36

Originally Posted by Gwynplaine

If they reject any potion of the law the left will absolutely snap and scream about corrupt illegitimate judges for years. If they uphold the entire law suddenly it won't be an issue.

Except Thomas and Scalia are text book examples of the activist judges that the right loves to complain about.

**SwampdonkeyPLD** · 2012-06-27 07:07

Originally Posted by hey

When the government tells you to pay for something, you pay for it. You have never had free will when it comes to this.

Except you've always had the choice not to pay in the first place. Not anymore though. Now, possibly, the govt. can tell you to do something simply because you breathe air.

Originally Posted by Coolbeans

Except Thomas and Scalia are text book examples of the activist judges that the right loves to complain about.

Uh, no.

**Plow** · 2012-06-27 09:31

Originally Posted by Kurokikaze

The problem is that ACA will not and cannot survive without the mandate. If they removed just that they might as well kill the entire program.

I'm hoping when this does eventually happen we start gearing up to bring Single Payer for all. Fuck private insurance.

I won't even begin to predict what the court will do, but the most likely result of striking down the mandate while upholding the preexisting condition clause (which I'm not sure why is considered highly likely, given that it's the exact same as the mandate except on corporations, which this court views as having the same rights as citizens) is this:

Insurance companies begin with buying state mandates, and shortly after refuse to operate in any state that doesn't mandate it.

**archibaldcrane** · 2012-06-27 12:38

Originally Posted by SwampdonkeyPLD

Uh, no.

Yeah, I'd say John Roberts is more guilty of this.

Swamp, have you seen this article? I think you'd find it interesting.

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2...fa_fact_toobin

**SwampdonkeyPLD** · 2012-06-27 13:34

Originally Posted by archibaldcrane

Yeah, I'd say John Roberts is more guilty of this.

Swamp, have you seen this article? I think you'd find it interesting.

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2...fa_fact_toobin

That was interesting.

I've always found this interesting about Citizens United though:

"[From the article]The McCain-Feingold campaign-finance law prohibited corporations from running television commercials for or against Presidential candidates for thirty days before primaries."

How exactly did Citizens United become the rallying cry for liberals? Corporations were simply allowed to do something they have always been allowed to do, only closer to an election. In my opinion the 30 day limitation had more to do with incumbent protection than money in politics.

Edit: I know everyone has there definition of "judicial activism" but I don't see how striking down a law as unconstitutional can fit into anyone's definition. That's essentially the court's job.

**archibaldcrane** · 2012-06-27 13:39

Because Citizen's United was supposed to be about the very narrow case of running a political documentary on Video On Demand in that timeframe, and instead they declared "SCRAP THE ENTIRE GODDAMN LAW" after a bunch of shenanigans. It was judicial activism at it's finest - they saw their chance to get rid of McCain-Feingold, and went balls deep.

**SwampdonkeyPLD** · 2012-06-27 13:43

Originally Posted by archibaldcrane

Because Citizen's United was supposed to be about the very narrow case of running a political documentary on Video On Demand in that timeframe, and instead they declared "SCRAP THE ENTIRE GODDAMN LAW" after a bunch of shenanigans. It was judicial activism at it's finest - they saw their chance to get rid of McCain-Feingold, and went balls deep.

Maybe if the first SG didn't screw up and they pulled that stunt, you'd be correct. But if the first SG was correct, the court has a duty to strike it down. Simply because Kagan reversed that position doesn't mean the court had to side with the government.

I'd agree with you if the court did what it did w/o that admission.

Demosthenes11 · 2012-06-27 13:45

Originally Posted by Buffy

Some people believe that the national health care law isn't a step forward, but a step towards socialism.

does nobody know what the fuck socialism is? every time someone says this it lets me know they are one of the dumbest humans alive

**Seraph** · 2012-06-27 13:51

What do people think about just banning health insurance completely and using that to force medical prices to more reasonable levels? I'm not a huge fan of this idea, but I do honestly think that insurance has gotten to such a point that all of these baid-aid solutions are getting insane. I almost wonder if people are more upset about how we are going to fund medical care to those who cannot afford it as opposed to the idea of offering less well off people healthcare.

And yes, I have had a family member in the hospital in the last year. We have insurance, but the pricing of things, the number of unnecessary or just flat out wrong things charged, and the level of cost shifting was disgusting. "Insurance discount" my ass. I can totally see why people are upset about the current system, or whatever the next incarnation is going to be.

Demosthenes11 · 2012-06-27 14:02

Also, I like how everyone finds this healthcare plan "socialist" but have no problems (for the most part) with their taxes paying for things like roads, police, education etc. Healthcare benefits society far more than those things, and their taxes already pay for healthcare

**Mizango** · 2012-06-27 14:09

Originally Posted by Alarial

Socialism!

That is all I read too. It should be mandatory that people know the definition of the word before using it in any capacity.

**Acturus** · 2012-06-27 14:23

Originally Posted by Seraph

What do people think about just banning health insurance completely and using that to force medical prices to more reasonable levels? I'm not a huge fan of this idea, but I do honestly think that insurance has gotten to such a point that all of these baid-aid solutions are getting insane. I almost wonder if people are more upset about how we are going to fund medical care to those who cannot afford it as opposed to the idea of offering less well off people healthcare.

And yes, I have had a family member in the hospital in the last year. We have insurance, but the pricing of things, the number of unnecessary or just flat out wrong things charged, and the level of cost shifting was disgusting. "Insurance discount" my ass. I can totally see why people are upset about the current system, or whatever the next incarnation is going to be.

You can't. Medicare is the largest payor in the United States. You'd have to scrap all insurance including Medicare and Medicaid, and that'll never happen.

Besides, there are laws in place that forbid hospitals from turning away patients in emergent circumastances (EMTALA), that law basically means that the ED can be used by anyone who qualifies as an emergency without care for ability to pay.

You'd have to roll back a bunch of laws and regulations from over the past 50 years to even attempt a 100% self-pay system.

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