Obamacare, Healthcare, etc.

[Talint]

does nobody know what the fuck socialism is? every time someone says this it lets me know they are one of the dumbest humans alive

But, but, socialism is the first step towards communism!

And the cold war has taught us that COMMUNISM IS EVIL!

You're not EVIL, are you?

[Tyche]

There was a co worker that showed me his old hospitals website and it published the prices of everything. I wish I remembered what it was. IIRC, spine surgery was $70 a minute (just surgery, not anesthesia). A critical care room (not including treatment) was $4500 a night. I'm looking for the site now.

[aurik]

The problem with abolishing health insurance is that the optimal solution becomes pretty inhumane. Most people don't have the money to pay for the proper treatment, which means they won't get treatment and thus the country's workforce will shrink as people die or are too sick to work. For all the talk about death panels, this would be the real death panel: do you have $100,000 to drop as a deposit for an oncologist? No? Enjoy your cancer.

The idea of an insurance mandate is that if *everyone* chips in a little bit, we can afford to take care of the people that need treatment and return them to the workforce. Yes, if you don't get sick, the premiums feel like a tax. But if you let people say "I'm healthy I don't need insurance", then only the unhealthy people are in the insurance pool, at which point it's not really insurance.

[Seraph]

The problem with abolishing health insurance is that the optimal solution becomes pretty inhumane. Most people don't have the money to pay for the proper treatment, which means they won't get treatment and thus the country's workforce will shrink as people die or are too sick to work. For all the talk about death panels, this would be the real death panel: do you have $100,000 to drop as a deposit for an oncologist? No? Enjoy your cancer.

The idea of an insurance mandate is that if *everyone* chips in a little bit, we can afford to take care of the people that need treatment and return them to the workforce. Yes, if you don't get sick, the premiums feel like a tax. But if you let people say "I'm healthy I don't need insurance", then only the unhealthy people are in the insurance pool, at which point it's not really insurance.

I agree for the most part, but the question becomes is there a way we can make it so that it doesn't cost $100,000 for an oncologist if you need one? I realize that sometimes people are going to acquire rare exotic diseases that will not realistically be financially possible to treat under this no insurance concept, but if cancer is so common why is the treatment so expensive for most of it if the technology hasn't really improved in 20 years (I know there are certain exceptions to this)? I realize every case is different, but even cut and dry 'we always do/use this' procedures are also expensive as all hell because someone is always there to foot the bill somehow.

Ideally, I would love it if standard medical care for common ailments was affordable to the average Joe, but we have designed a system where anything beyond getting the sniffles isn't. I do not understand why people aren't upset about that. We keep asking who is going to pay for these insane prices instead of asking why we have to actually find someone to pay these insane prices. This shit is fucked up.

[SwampdonkeyPLD]

To respond to the inevitable "that's judicial activism" if the mandate is struck down, here's the Congressional Budget Office hinting a mandate is possibly unconstitutional back in '93. http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/48xx/doc4816/doc38.pdf

[Buffy]

Also, I like how everyone finds this healthcare plan "socialist" but have no problems (for the most part) with their taxes paying for things like roads, police, education etc. Healthcare benefits society far more than those things, and their taxes already pay for healthcare

I have problems with my tax dollars going to education. It's not the governments responsibility to educate my children, it is mine. If you want to make it a requirement for kids to attend school (not insane), tax me, refund it in the form of the voucher, let me choose where my child goes to school. If I don't have kids, I get to keep the voucher because I'm not using the product. If I home school, the kids have to be tested and pass the required benchmarks, or the voucher doesn't get reimbursed to you. You can chose to use the voucher at any school, regardless of affiliation, as long as they test properly.

I have problems with my tax dollars going to roads. If you own a car, you should pay a tax based on your mileage. Therefor you are paying for the service you use. You could attach it to gas even, instead of a mileage tax. Make it $10/gallon or something.

I have no problems with police or the military, as those are national priorities and you can not chose if you are going to participate in them. Emergency services like fire response and 911 should also be private. You pay for the service or you don't get a response. If my house burns down, sucks to be me, I should have paid a firefighting agency. If it burns down my neighbor's house at the same time, that's why you have insurance and the courts, and jail for people who don't pay.

Make a national sales tax, get rid of income taxes. Don't tax raw foods (milk, vegetables, bread, uncooked meats, cereals - basic food stuff), tax everything else at like 80-100%. Want to buy a $20,000 boat? It's now 40k. Want to buy a $40 pair of jeans? $80. Let me decide how my money gets spent please, not the government.

I'm aware my views are in the .01 percentile of people who live in America.

Also, just for fun, churches shouldn't be tax exempt...doesn't apply to the topic, but its fun to throw out.

But you guys are just too much fun to torture.

[Kurokikaze]

I have problems with my tax dollars going to education. It's not the governments responsibility to educate my children, it is mine. If you want to make it a requirement for kids to attend school (not insane), tax me, refund it in the form of the voucher, let me choose where my child goes to school. If I don't have kids, I get to keep the voucher because I'm not using the product. If I home school, the kids have to be tested and pass the required benchmarks, or the voucher doesn't get reimbursed to you. You can chose to use the voucher at any school, regardless of affiliation, as long as they test properly.

I have problems with my tax dollars going to roads. If you own a car, you should pay a tax based on your mileage. Therefor you are paying for the service you use. You could attach it to gas even, instead of a mileage tax. Make it $10/gallon or something.

I have no problems with police or the military, as those are national priorities and you can not chose if you are going to participate in them. Emergency services like fire response and 911 should also be private. You pay for the service or you don't get a response. If my house burns down, sucks to be me, I should have paid a firefighting agency. If it burns down my neighbor's house at the same time, that's why you have insurance and the courts, and jail for people who don't pay.

Make a national sales tax, get rid of income taxes. Don't tax raw foods (milk, vegetables, bread, uncooked meats, cereals - basic food stuff), tax everything else at like 80-100%. Want to buy a $20,000 boat? It's now 40k. Want to buy a $40 pair of jeans? $80. Let me decide how my money gets spent please, not the government.

I'm aware my views are in the .01 percentile of people who live in America.

Also, just for fun, churches shouldn't be tax exempt...doesn't apply to the topic, but its fun to throw out.

But you guys are just too much fun to torture.

^ troll post. No one is this stupid.

[archibaldcrane]

No one is this stupid.

lol

[Buffy]

No one is this stupid.

Have you met Alabama? How dare you?!?!?

[Salodin]

Mfw reading that post...

[Demosthenes11]

I have problems with my tax dollars going to education. It's not the governments responsibility to educate my children, it is mine. If you want to make it a requirement for kids to attend school (not insane), tax me, refund it in the form of the voucher, let me choose where my child goes to school. If I don't have kids, I get to keep the voucher because I'm not using the product. If I home school, the kids have to be tested and pass the required benchmarks, or the voucher doesn't get reimbursed to you. You can chose to use the voucher at any school, regardless of affiliation, as long as they test properly.

I have problems with my tax dollars going to roads. If you own a car, you should pay a tax based on your mileage. Therefor you are paying for the service you use. You could attach it to gas even, instead of a mileage tax. Make it $10/gallon or something.

I have no problems with police or the military, as those are national priorities and you can not chose if you are going to participate in them. Emergency services like fire response and 911 should also be private. You pay for the service or you don't get a response. If my house burns down, sucks to be me, I should have paid a firefighting agency. If it burns down my neighbor's house at the same time, that's why you have insurance and the courts, and jail for people who don't pay.

Make a national sales tax, get rid of income taxes. Don't tax raw foods (milk, vegetables, bread, uncooked meats, cereals - basic food stuff), tax everything else at like 80-100%. Want to buy a $20,000 boat? It's now 40k. Want to buy a $40 pair of jeans? $80. Let me decide how my money gets spent please, not the government.

I'm aware my views are in the .01 percentile of people who live in America.

Also, just for fun, churches shouldn't be tax exempt...doesn't apply to the topic, but its fun to throw out.

But you guys are just too much fun to torture.

The ultimate irony is, people that want this kind of shit because "they are smarter than the government so they can spend their money better," when in fact, having this view ensures you are not smarter than anyone but a below average beaver

[Komm Suesser Tod]

I have problems with my tax dollars going to education. It's not the governments responsibility to educate my children, it is mine. If you want to make it a requirement for kids to attend school (not insane), tax me, refund it in the form of the voucher, let me choose where my child goes to school. If I don't have kids, I get to keep the voucher because I'm not using the product. If I home school, the kids have to be tested and pass the required benchmarks, or the voucher doesn't get reimbursed to you. You can chose to use the voucher at any school, regardless of affiliation, as long as they test properly.

I have problems with my tax dollars going to roads. If you own a car, you should pay a tax based on your mileage. Therefor you are paying for the service you use. You could attach it to gas even, instead of a mileage tax. Make it $10/gallon or something.

I have no problems with police or the military, as those are national priorities and you can not chose if you are going to participate in them. Emergency services like fire response and 911 should also be private. You pay for the service or you don't get a response. If my house burns down, sucks to be me, I should have paid a firefighting agency. If it burns down my neighbor's house at the same time, that's why you have insurance and the courts, and jail for people who don't pay.

Make a national sales tax, get rid of income taxes. Don't tax raw foods (milk, vegetables, bread, uncooked meats, cereals - basic food stuff), tax everything else at like 80-100%. Want to buy a $20,000 boat? It's now 40k. Want to buy a $40 pair of jeans? $80. Let me decide how my money gets spent please, not the government.

I'm aware my views are in the .01 percentile of people who live in America.

Also, just for fun, churches shouldn't be tax exempt...doesn't apply to the topic, but its fun to throw out.

But you guys are just too much fun to torture.

This whole idea is a ridiculous notion. Do the police have to pay the same tax on gas? Do companies have to pay it at the same rate for transporting food? Wouldn't that just mean that people who don't drive would then just have to pay for roads anyways? Even if you don't drive, the roads benefit you in ways you (apparently) can't begin to imagine. Same with schools, firefighters all sorts of public services.

Also, wouldn't sales tax still have the government still spending your money?

[Pirian]

This whole idea is a ridiculous notion. Do the police have to pay the same tax on gas? Do companies have to pay it at the same rate for transporting food? Wouldn't that just mean that people who don't drive would then just have to pay for roads anyways? Even if you don't drive, the roads benefit you in ways you (apparently) can't begin to imagine. Same with schools, firefighters all sorts of public services.

Also, wouldn't sales tax still have the government still spending your money?

gdi if you argue with it you validate its existence

[Komm Suesser Tod]

gdi if you argue with it you validate its existence

Sorry, the response seemed so obvious it was hard to not respond.

[Correction]

I have problems with my tax dollars going to roads. If you own a car, you should pay a tax based on your mileage. Therefor you are paying for the service you use. You could attach it to gas even, instead of a mileage tax. Make it $10/gallon or something.

You still benefit from roads even if you don't have a car.

Were you home schooled?

[SwampdonkeyPLD]

I think what he is leaving out is why should the federal govt. do it? Even still, it's not like we wouldn't have roads but for govt.

[Demosthenes11]

I think what he is leaving out is why should the federal govt. do it? Even still, it's not like we wouldn't have roads but for govt.

no thats great. lets make local governments take care of it only. That way the transportation departments in each city can just balloon to ridiculous levels as they deal with roads meeting up from other towns. It will also be great for those small towns of ~1000 people that are big in size - I'm sure they will have no problems footing the bill for huge stretches of roads

I can't believe some of you can feed yourselves lol

[SwampdonkeyPLD]

Did I say local govt's only? Pretty sure I didn't exclude states.

[Sepukku]

Did I say local govt's only? Pretty sure I didn't exclude states.

It would be extremely hard on state gov'ts too. Consider states like Wyoming, Idaho, and Montana, that have small population, but large amounts of terrain to have roads through. And sure, the # of roads will be smaller outside of the cities, but the cost of building and maintaining a road through the Rocky Mountains has to be much greater than the cost of building and maintaining an equally long (mileage-wise) road through less inhibiting terrain such as the plains of Ohio.

[Sepukku]

So assuming the logic Republicans follow here with healthy people sharing the cost of unhealthy people, Montana, Idaho, Wyoming, Colorado, and the Dakotas should all go without roads because making populous small states like Massachusetts, Ohio, and Maryland help share the cost after paying for their own comparatively shorter and easier to build roads is Socialism.