Obamacare, Healthcare, etc.

[Gwynplaine]

Jobs will be created as a result of these changes? Magnificent.

It enables some unproductive make-work monkey jobs that decrease efficiency. But by its nature government can't create real jobs of productive value. It can ensure the protection of rights for the framework society needs to trade and coexist peacefully. That's extremely important for any economy or jobs to exist at all, when politicians try to "create jobs" it just makes for an unproductive job that in fact saps resources that would have been better used elsewhere.

fantastic delusions are providers of mirth.

I'll say.

[Weeks]

It's pretty clear that Gwyn has zero experience in the medical field. Even doctors who disingenuously blame government regulation for lazy nurses and overwritten hospital guidelines (See: His post on the last page) absolutely hate the free market system at least as much when you force them to admit it. Bureaucracy is inescapable in medicine, but at least CMS has rules that consistently make sense for patient care.

[hey]

ITT: building roads and bridges is not productive work.

[Talint]

It enables some unproductive make-work monkey jobs that decrease efficiency. But by its nature government can't create real jobs of productive value. It can ensure the protection of rights for the framework society needs to trade and coexist peacefully. That's extremely important for any economy or jobs to exist at all, when politicians try to "create jobs" it just makes for an unproductive job that in fact saps resources that would have been better used elsewhere.

What exactly are you basing this on?

[archibaldcrane]

What exactly are you basing this on?

All of the other countries with inefffective socialized medicine created by the government, obviously.

[Gwynplaine]

What exactly are you basing this on?

Economic science and history.

[Siatdiat]

All of the other countries with inefffective socialized medicine created by the government, obviously.

Romneycare/Obamacare whatever you want to call it, there is nothing socialist about this plan... there is really no direct comparison between it and any actual socialist universal health plan in any other country on the face of the earth. People calling it communist/socialist are uneducated on what that actually means and just using buzzwords from whatever inane news source they prescribe to.

It is a plan of government regulation on health insurance companies. Government regulation does not = socialism... I'm heading out so I don't feel like listing all the current examples where Government regulations work out really well in this company. Admittedly, we could probably make a decent sized list of where government regulation is damaging as well. Government regulation in and off itself is not good or bad, it doesn't take on any specific quality until it is actively regulating something, and then you have to judge it by implementation and outcome.

People are quick to call me this or that based on whether I'm agreeing or disagreeing with something that is generally an accepted platform of the democratic or republican parties in America, but the fact of the matter is that the political spectrum is much broader than our shitty 2 party system. Other countries like Great Britain realize this, and I'm curious why we can't get ourselves over our addiction with Coke and Pepsi politics. It limits the true scope and complexities of issues, and forces people to make exceptions to their own beliefs or views in order to fall in line with a party.

I'm not a fan of Obama, or Romney, but this isn't about agreeing or not agreeing with someones platform overall. It's about actually taking the time to read what its about, understand it, and make an actual informed opinion about it rather than jumping to conclusions based off of the short sighted accepted view of your shitty party mentality. I'm pretty sure anyone who actually understands what is going on with this system will shut the fuck up and stop being an asshat about it.

[Gwynplaine]

It's pretty clear that Gwyn has zero experience in the medical field. Even doctors who disingenuously blame government regulation for lazy nurses and overwritten hospital guidelines (See: His post on the last page) absolutely hate the free market system at least as much when you force them to admit it. Bureaucracy is inescapable in medicine, but at least CMS has rules that consistently make sense for patient care.

When you say free market system I guess you're referring to the health care field as it currently exists? There's been no free market in medicine for a long time. And doctors and health care workers are right to hate a lot of the problems that exist. Some of which I mentioned there, There are problems, and they aren't addressed by Obamacare.

There's no good reason health insurance should be tied to your work place for one. That's only a remnant of earlier central planning due to how companies during WWII couldn't offer certain worker bonuses. So instead they *avoided* fixing the problem by creating more bad government law and made a tax incentive for employers to provide insurance. I mean just imagine if your car insurance were tied to your employer. Clearly that tax incentive needs to go.

Ironically the federal government fails to actually uphold the proper interpretation of the Commerce Clause when it comes to health insurance. Which would be to prevent states from setting up barriers to trade between them. Instead there are limits to insurance so that it can't be provided outside various states to open up to a broader customer base.

One of the other big things would be to stop requiring insurance for routine services like checkups, pills, etc. Health insurance should provide for unforseeable accidents that are out of a person's control. Things that are so expensive as to be financially ruinous. Surgery, broken bones, trauma, etc. Letting insurance carriers choose what services to carry instead of mandating wasteful perks would dramatically drive down costs.

If you can think of some I'd like to know a few examples of the CMS rules that consistently make sense for patient care

[Darus Grey]

I'll take you up on that then. If literally anything is an improvement then repealing regulations and making the market more free would be a great start.

I'd be open to the option on the provision that some kind of evidence backed it up. I'm a pragmatist through and through.

Unfortunetly as a international health care policy expert, I know that there is zero evidence that what you're suggesting would improve anything, our current system was a free market. The problem is that this free market was so readily abused by for profit companies that we had to regulate it for the safety of the population, resulting in what we have today. What your suggesting has already been tried, and the experiment was a failure.

There's a reason every democratic country in the world has implemented, or is trending towards a universal health care system, because it's the only thing we've discovered actually works and meets the criteria of being efficient, cost effective, and comprehensive(this is indisputable at this point).

So as a pragmatist, I say sure, a totally free market *could* be an improvement over the clusterfuck we have now(and it may well be), but where is the evidence? Not a single country was successful with a free or nearly free market for healthcare, what would you do *differently* to make it work other than to simply go "make it more free"(which we can all agree, is useless rhetoric).

For the record, I don't actually think the PPACA is much of an improvement to be honest, it's just a baby step at best. It's just a band-aid to a broken system.

[Sera]

People are quick to call me this or that based on whether I'm agreeing or disagreeing with something that is generally an accepted platform of the democratic or republican parties in America, but the fact of the matter is that the political spectrum is much broader than our shitty 2 party system. Other countries like Great Britain realize this, and I'm curious why we can't get ourselves over our addiction with Coke and Pepsi politics. It limits the true scope and complexities of issues, and forces people to make exceptions to their own beliefs or views in order to fall in line with a party.

http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-conte...I_love_you.gif

[Talint]

Economic science and history.

Examples?

[Milkster]

Obamacare includes such a variety and volume of negative policies that it’s hard to keep track of them all. Here is a list of 10 terrible provisions that every American should be aware of:

1. It increases taxes on families earning over $250,000. In 2013, the employee portion of the Medicare payroll tax will increase from 1.45 percent to 2.35 percent for families earning $250,000 or more and individuals earning $200,000 or more. The income threshold is not indexed for inflation, so more and more middle-income families will be hit by the tax hike as time goes on.

1. It adds a new tax to investment income. The increased payroll tax rate is also applied to high-earners’ investment income for the first time beginning in 2013. It will hit capital gains, dividends, rents, and royalties, discouraging investment and harming economic growth.
2. It puts new limitations on those with HSAs and FSAs. Starting in 2012, Obamacare restricts the products that consumers may purchase with a Health Savings Account (HSA) or Flexible Savings Account (FSA)—such as over-the-counter medications—and increases the penalty for such non-qualified uses of HSAs. It also limits the amount taxpayers may deposit into an FSA to $2,500 a year in 2013.
3. It adds a new tax on those who purchase medical devices. In 2013, a 2.3 percent excise tax will be applied to medical devices, causing a $28.5 billion tax hike on medical device manufacturers. The industry will pay for this tax by reducing jobs and passing additional costs on to consumers.
4. It penalizes marriage. Obamacare creates new taxpayer-funded subsidies for the low and middle classes to purchase health coverage, but the structure of the subsidies allows two individuals to claim more in subsidies alone than if married. This discriminates against married couples and discourages marriage at almost all age and income levels.
5. It violates religious liberty. The Department of Health and Human Services included the full range of contraceptives, including abortion-inducing drugs, among the women-specific preventive services that Obamacare requires insurers to include with no cost-sharing. This mandate violates Americans’ conscience rights and religious liberty. Its narrow exemption for religious employers will force many who find these products morally objectionable—including religious charities, hospitals, and schools—to pay for them.
6. It puts Medicare decisions in the hands of an unelected board. The Independent Payment Advisory Board, a board of 15 unelected officials, will have the power to cut Medicare spending without congressional approval. These unaccountable government appointees will be able to restrict seniors’ access to providers, treatments, and services.
7. It puts a premium tax on health insurers. Obamacare adds a premium tax on health insurers that offer full coverage beginning in 2014. On average, the tax is expected to increase premiums by 1.9 percent to 2.3 percent in 2014 and between 2.8 percent and 3.7 percent by 2023. Combined with the other provisions in Obamacare, this tax will have a huge impact on the cost of premiums.
8. It creates a new unsustainable entitlement program. On top of Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid, Obamacare created a new long-term care entitlement called the CLASS program. It is actuarially unsound, unworkable, and unsustainable. As a result, the Administration has already put its implementation “on hold.”
9. It puts over half of all Americans on a government program. Because of Obamacare’s huge expansion of Medicaid and creation of taxpayer-funded subsidies to purchase health coverage, more than half of all Americans will be dependent on a government health care program (Medicare, Medicaid, or the government exchanges) by the end of this decade.

http://blog.heritage.org/2012/03/07/...have-heard-of/

Found this... Well, my super conservative facebook friend did.

[archibaldcrane]

At least half of those things I consider to be good.

[Tyche]

At least half of those things I consider to be good.

Lol, my initial thought was..."these are supposed to be bad?"

[Milkster]

It's because you two are socialist! That's what he called me.

[Demosthenes11]

Excuse me while I sob for people making over 250k having to pay an extra $500 per year

[Mrbeansman]

What the fuck man that's one whole Ipad.

[Milkster]

That's an 8G iPad which is for poor people.

[Pirian]

Economic science and history.

I can't say for the second part, but as for this -- no, you're not.

[Greatguardian]

Deducting 1 ipad from a 500 ipad salary isn't really a huge deal. It's much harder on the people who only make 100 ipads or less per year, especially if their insurance lacks coverage or has 4-5 ipad deductibles.