How the religious right ruins the lives of gay/lesbian kids

[Demosthenes11]

In someways I am I guess, but the reason I continue to associate myself with Catholicism is because while I disagree with a lot of what they believe, I still agree with a lot. For one, they are one of the few of the Christian sects that believe the Bible should be taken figuratively rather than literally. I still believe in Jesus, that he was the Messiah, and a lot of his teachings among other things which would make me more than just a deist.

I know a lot of people don't see it, but I guess I was lucky where I grew up in CT, because I knew a lot of Catholics, but we all seem to have the same idea of "keep your faith, but keep your mouth shut" in that don't push your beliefs on others, don't judge, and remember doing good deeds isn't remotely limited to other Christians. It seems like this breed of Catholic is rare, but they do exist, I swear.

agreeing with the golden rule does not make you a catholic, it makes you not an asshole. Unless you firmly believe jesus is the only path to salvation and that god is a jealous, trolling cunt, you aren't a christian. Agreeing with Jesus' teachings, again, typically just make you not an asshole. What's that father, don't judge others unless I am perfect? Wow what a crazy concept.

[Alleya]

Jesus' teachings are also pretty suspect. Vicarious redemption, take no thought for tomorrow, abandon everything you own and everyone close to you and follow me because the end times are imminent...the few bits of actually nice philosophy people cherry pick to support their continued association with christianity are all lifted from wisdom far older than the bible, the golden rule being the key one. That's been around for as far back as anthropologists can go.

If god makes you feel fuzzy or whatever, seriously, just be a deist. There is no part of an organized religious structure that an educated person (or any person) needs. If it has things you want, find them in a force less regressive and destructive.

[Xno Kappa]

Don't scholars say it's believed Jesus only preached six of the ten commandments that had absolutely nothing to do with religion, just being a good person overall. It was the original Christian trolls who added the specific ones for the religion;

Thou shalt have no other gods
No graven images or likenesses
Not take the Lord's name in vain
Remember the sabbath day.

[Kuya]

At the close of the seven-month-long sex-ed review, Anderson and her colleagues wrote a memo to the Anoka-Hennepin school board, concluding, "The majority of parents do not wish to have there [sic] children taught that the gay lifestyle is a normal acceptable alternative." Surprisingly, the six-member board voted to adopt the measure by a four-to-two majority, even borrowing the memo's language to fashion the resulting districtwide policy, which pronounced that within the health curriculum, "homosexuality not be taught/addressed as a normal, valid lifestyle."

The policy became unofficially known as "No Homo Promo" and passed unannounced to parents and unpublished in the policy handbooks; most teachers were told about it by their principals. Teachers say it had a chilling effect and they became concerned about mentioning gays in any context. Discussion of homosexuality gradually disappeared from classes. "If you can't talk about it in any context, which is how teachers interpret district policies, kids internalize that to mean that being gay must be so shameful and wrong," says Anoka High School teacher Mary Jo Merrick-Lockett. "And that has created a climate of fear and repression and harassment."

Not teaching that homosexuality is normal and valid, makes homosexual children feel they aren't normal and valid. These policies aren't a matter of style and preference; they hurt people.

Read more: http://www.rollingstone.com/politics...#ixzz1lweQspK8

[Zetanio]

I don't call it policy anymore. It's blind idiocy. The people who write this shit are destroying lives on the basis of an idiotic belief in a social construct made up to assuage their own faults and fears.

[Greatguardian]

Don't scholars say it's believed Jesus only preached six of the ten commandments that had absolutely nothing to do with religion, just being a good person overall. It was the original Christian trolls who added the specific ones for the religion;

Thou shalt have no other gods
No graven images or likenesses
Not take the Lord's name in vain
Remember the sabbath day.

Well the commandments predate Jesus by ... a lot. Moses was the one with the tablets. Jesus just came later. So if you're insinuating that there were only "six original commandments from Jesus", then I'd find that highly suspect as he had nothing to do with the commandments in the first place.

The religion in question was also Judaism at the time. Christianity is essentially a splinter from Judaism, same as Islam.

[Buffy]

I'm going to get destroyed by public opinion probably, but let me attempt to present a balanced Christian perspective on this topic.

I shall attempt to make several broad statements and then back them up, provide reasoning, and perhaps an interesting argument.

A little background from me: I have a bachelor's degree in religious studies from Regent University. Regent University was formerly (1995ish?) CBN University, associated with CBN and on the same campus. For those wondering why this sounds familiar, yes, that is Pat Robertson's channel/school/campus/program/etc. No, I have not met Pat Robertson. He was the Chancelor for the school during the time that I attended. My father worked for Regent University for 15 years. In general I share many similar viewpoints on Christian topics as Pat Robertson does. I don't agree with him entirely on all topics. I'm 34 years old, unmarried (never have been), no children, employed with a full-time job, white, have had no gay interests or inclinations in my personal life. I consider my faith deeply personal and important, but that I lack in many areas and disappoint God by my choices occasionally and please Him occasionally.

The bullying depicted in that article is quite strong. I would like to state that I find it objectionable on all levels. The thought that the school board's policy prevents them from discussing gay and lesbians, even when these terms are being used as epithets is clearly flawed. Obviously middle school has changed in 20 years, no one would have even known what those words meant when I was that age.

I would like to highlight some text from the article:

At churches like First Baptist Church of Anoka, parishioners believe that homosexuality is a form of mental illness caused by family dysfunction, childhood trauma and exposure to pornography – a perversion curable through intensive therapy.

This is the result of bad scriptural teaching, nothing more or less. If a member of the church "believes" this, provide the scriptural basis. The simple fact is they can not. From a theological perspective, an action or thought is either a sin or not. At no point in the New Testament will you hear anything linking homosexuality to a sickness. It is always described as sin (Please understand I'm not attacking the gay or lesbian lifestyle - I'm referring to what I believe a balanced person can read in scripture - I hope you stick with me and read the duration of my post). If a homosexual thought or act is sinful, it can not be a mental illness. Illness is addressed many times in the New Testament. In those situations where Jesus heals the person, sin and illness are never linked.

In fact, in one scripture, Jesus is asked "Who sinned that this man might be blind?" (I'm paraphrasing) by theological teachers of the time, hoping to find Jesus in a theological error. Jesus replied that no one sinned, not the man or his parents, and healed the blind man.

If you ever hear the argument that homosexuality is a sickness, ask Christians how they can hate it. Christians were charged by Jesus to heal the sick. How does hatred and persecution heal the sick? If they respond that homosexuality is sin, ask them why they hate homosexuality so much more then someone who lies? Since all sin separates us from God, lying is just as bad in the eyes of God as homosexuality, since it separates us from him. If they respond that homosexuality is worse because it is sex (I won't even get into this theological topic), ask them why they hate homosexuality so much more then adultery, which is RAMPANT in the American church.

See, they can't have it both ways. Either it is an illness, and they should be trying to heal it, or it is sin, and they are over-reacting to it by over-emphasizing it.

In fact, one argument I've found particularly effective is to ask a Christian why they don't act more Muslim. In America, due to 9-11, this has a particular offensive nature to it. Often they will respond "Because I'm not Muslim!!" Simply assert that anyone who doesn't claim to be Christian shouldn't be expected to act like one. I would argue that the number of people who both proudly proclaim they are both homosexual and proud of it and believe they are a born again, bible thumping, God-fearing, word-of-god-is-the-source-of-all-truth-in-my-life is fairly small.

A Christian's focus shouldn't be on if a person is gay, lesbian, drunk, lying, cheating or a murderer. It should reside on one thing - How do I draw this person to Jesus? The issue isn't to make them "not gay" or "not bi" or whatever. The issue (for a Christian) should be about making this person interested in Christianity and why we think our life and afterlife is different.

I don't see how this hate - and hate is the best word quite frankly - accomplishes that.

I'm fairly certain I don't think about Gay and Lesbians in the same way many Christians do. I struggle to find the Jesus so warmly depicted in the scriptures represented in the blind hatred of Gays and Lesbians.

I don't know what I hope to accomplish by posting this. I simply wish to say that not all Christians hate gays. Some see the hypocrisy of hating someone when God loved us ourselves when we were so obviously flawed. I apologize to anyone who is Gay or Lesbian that has been hurt or offended by a professing Christian. I don't know what to say other then like any other large group, we have our own selection of retards.

[Demosthenes11]

Looking at people and wanting to bring them closer to Jesus is offensive. "Healing" homosexuality is insulting.

If someone told me I need to get closer to Jesus, I would tell them to fuck off and probably call jesus a cunt

[Zetanio]

Looking at people and wanting to bring them closer to Jesus is offensive. "Healing" homosexuality is insulting.

If someone told me I need to get closer to Jesus, I would tell them to fuck off and probably call jesus a cunt

I agree with Demos, most of what you posted is excuses and apologies. I don't argue with Christians (or any religious people) anymore. They can live in their fantasy land of sins and forgiveness. I'll be over here with logic, reasoning and basic human fucking decency.

[Kurokikaze]

How many gay and lesbian people must God create before Christians start accepting them?

[Stumblingdrunk]

How many gay and lesbian people must God create before Christians start accepting them?

GOD DOESN"T MAKE MISTAKES!

[Eurell]

I'm going to get destroyed by public opinion probably, but let me attempt to present a balanced Christian perspective on this topic.

I shall attempt to make several broad statements and then back them up, provide reasoning, and perhaps an interesting argument.

A little background from me: I have a bachelor's degree in religious studies from Regent University. Regent University was formerly (1995ish?) CBN University, associated with CBN and on the same campus. For those wondering why this sounds familiar, yes, that is Pat Robertson's channel/school/campus/program/etc. No, I have not met Pat Robertson. He was the Chancelor for the school during the time that I attended. My father worked for Regent University for 15 years. In general I share many similar viewpoints on Christian topics as Pat Robertson does. I don't agree with him entirely on all topics. I'm 34 years old, unmarried (never have been), no children, employed with a full-time job, white, have had no gay interests or inclinations in my personal life. I consider my faith deeply personal and important, but that I lack in many areas and disappoint God by my choices occasionally and please Him occasionally.

The bullying depicted in that article is quite strong. I would like to state that I find it objectionable on all levels. The thought that the school board's policy prevents them from discussing gay and lesbians, even when these terms are being used as epithets is clearly flawed. Obviously middle school has changed in 20 years, no one would have even known what those words meant when I was that age.

I would like to highlight some text from the article:



This is the result of bad scriptural teaching, nothing more or less. If a member of the church "believes" this, provide the scriptural basis. The simple fact is they can not. From a theological perspective, an action or thought is either a sin or not. At no point in the New Testament will you hear anything linking homosexuality to a sickness. It is always described as sin (Please understand I'm not attacking the gay or lesbian lifestyle - I'm referring to what I believe a balanced person can read in scripture - I hope you stick with me and read the duration of my post). If a homosexual thought or act is sinful, it can not be a mental illness. Illness is addressed many times in the New Testament. In those situations where Jesus heals the person, sin and illness are never linked.

In fact, in one scripture, Jesus is asked "Who sinned that this man might be blind?" (I'm paraphrasing) by theological teachers of the time, hoping to find Jesus in a theological error. Jesus replied that no one sinned, not the man or his parents, and healed the blind man.

If you ever hear the argument that homosexuality is a sickness, ask Christians how they can hate it. Christians were charged by Jesus to heal the sick. How does hatred and persecution heal the sick? If they respond that homosexuality is sin, ask them why they hate homosexuality so much more then someone who lies? Since all sin separates us from God, lying is just as bad in the eyes of God as homosexuality, since it separates us from him. If they respond that homosexuality is worse because it is sex (I won't even get into this theological topic), ask them why they hate homosexuality so much more then adultery, which is RAMPANT in the American church.

See, they can't have it both ways. Either it is an illness, and they should be trying to heal it, or it is sin, and they are over-reacting to it by over-emphasizing it.

In fact, one argument I've found particularly effective is to ask a Christian why they don't act more Muslim. In America, due to 9-11, this has a particular offensive nature to it. Often they will respond "Because I'm not Muslim!!" Simply assert that anyone who doesn't claim to be Christian shouldn't be expected to act like one. I would argue that the number of people who both proudly proclaim they are both homosexual and proud of it and believe they are a born again, bible thumping, God-fearing, word-of-god-is-the-source-of-all-truth-in-my-life is fairly small.

A Christian's focus shouldn't be on if a person is gay, lesbian, drunk, lying, cheating or a murderer. It should reside on one thing - How do I draw this person to Jesus? The issue isn't to make them "not gay" or "not bi" or whatever. The issue (for a Christian) should be about making this person interested in Christianity and why we think our life and afterlife is different.

I don't see how this hate - and hate is the best word quite frankly - accomplishes that.

I'm fairly certain I don't think about Gay and Lesbians in the same way many Christians do. I struggle to find the Jesus so warmly depicted in the scriptures represented in the blind hatred of Gays and Lesbians.

I don't know what I hope to accomplish by posting this. I simply wish to say that not all Christians hate gays. Some see the hypocrisy of hating someone when God loved us ourselves when we were so obviously flawed. I apologize to anyone who is Gay or Lesbian that has been hurt or offended by a professing Christian. I don't know what to say other then like any other large group, we have our own selection of retards.

Your post was fine, I don't think anything you said can really be argued with. It's just that you didn't really say anything. You pointed out the hypocrisy of many people, but everyone already knows all this. I don't think anyone is under the impression that All Christians behave in the way the people in the article do. The apology was nice I suppose, but hardly necessary from someone that hasn't done anything wrong.

[Xno Kappa]

Kind of arrogant to say Christian's focus should be to "heal" teh gay and bring them closer to Jesus.

[Kainos]

alotta blatent misinterpritation and twisting of scripture in this thread.

[Alleya]

alotta blatent misinterpritation and twisting of scripture in this thread.

How enlightening.

[Lucavi]

Don't scholars say it's believed Jesus only preached six of the ten commandments that had absolutely nothing to do with religion, just being a good person overall. It was the original Christian trolls who added the specific ones for the religion;

Thou shalt have no other gods
No graven images or likenesses
Not take the Lord's name in vain
Remember the sabbath day.

Not that i'm about to jump off a bridge or anything, but I'm pretty rooted in my faith, and can't wait to see what happens in the end, when I finally die. Should I be wrong and its exactly how the religious christian right paints it, then shame on me, and I'll take the consequences. I have a good feeling, however, that its not, and that the one who could possibly have the ability and insight to create the entire fucking universe wouldn't be so petty as to care what a few puppets on a blue planet did in their free time, so long as they weren't hurting others.

You read all the time in the bible that God is jealous and that God has a short temper. I refuse to believe that one deemed "perfect" can have imperfect qualities, and I refuse to justify them by falling back on the popular "WHO ARE YOU TO QUESTION ME?! I AM GOD!" rhetoric. If anything, God acts as a goddamn stoner or buddhist monk; calm, serene, willing to allow people to act out their freedoms, and, if any judging is going to happen, its going to happen -after- the person is dead, not while they are alive.

It seriously makes no sense that God would interfere in the lives of man if God is truly attempting to test and monitor one's faith. Humans are irrational; they will curse God even if they don't believe in him, when things are bad, and will praise God, even if they don't believe in him, when things are going well.

Truthfully, though, the greatest example of "there is no God" I can find comes from people themselves. How many extinct cultures existed that believed in their own forms of God? Can anyone actually believe that every single of their faithful are in their respected "heavens" or reincarnations?

[Kainos]

How enlightening.

im not defending the ppl in the article. just think its hypocritical ppl are raging about bulling of gays than turn around and inadvertantly bully christians within thier posts. fight fire with fire amirite?

[ronin sparthos]

alotta blatent misinterpritation and twisting of scripture in this thread.

Because Christians don't throw out, ignore or reinterpret passages that don't fit their personal worldviews.

Stone unruly children?
Thou shalt not allow a witch to live?
Animal sacrifices?
Prescriptions for adultery? worshiping other gods? homosexuality?
Slavery?
Bearing false witness?
Sending bears to tear apart some punks?
Countless peoples wiped out by the Israelites?

Fact is most Christians sum this up as OT hogwash and completely miss the point that regardless of this being an old pact, the actions are barbaric and cruel in the highest degree.

But who am I kidding, you'll have people readily defend slavery and prescriptions to kill other people in the name of God. So far have they fallen from rational thinking.

[ronin sparthos]

im not defending the ppl in the article. just think its hypocritical ppl are raging about bulling of gays than turn around and inadvertantly bully christians within thier posts. fight fire with fire amirite?

Except theists are the ones most often committing acts of physical violence. Bullying? At the worst theists online get a tongue lashing whereas the gays/non-believers get mocked, attacked, death threats and whatever else the fanatics can come up with in the name of their hatred.

Land in the correct part of the world and saying you're gay lands earns you a decapitation or being stoned to death.

There is really no comparison.

[Ashmada]

If god makes you feel fuzzy or whatever, seriously, just be a deist. There is no part of an organized religious structure that an educated person (or any person) needs. If it has things you want, find them in a force less regressive and destructive.

That's exactly what I was going to assert.

I understand that some people are born believers and some are born skeptics.
A study showed the existence of a "religious gene".

Personally, I was an unbeliever long before I understood philosophy. I just knew it was all BS by age 6 and vehemently protested when my parents wanted me to go through religious (catholic) rituals (they usually won, until I was 15 and refused to be bought by gifts or guilt-tripped with "do it for the grandparents").
For some, it's the opposite. Their gut feeling tells them there is a god, that's "faith", in essence.

So, I understand why some people believe in a creator... but it'd be nice if (non-fanatical) monotheists examined whether said creator has to be the one they were indoctrinated into believing in of it it can just be any kind of creator.
Won't happen on a large scale, but maybe a few eventually will.

Srsly, be a deist.
Benefits:
- You don't get lumped in with fundies anymore.
- We stop calling you cherry-pickers: if you believe in a creator god but none of the bible, there's nothing to cherry-pick. Be an ethical person without arbitrary guidance. It's not that hard.
- Free sundays!
- Free sundaes! (sorry)

Don't scholars say it's believed Jesus only preached six of the ten commandments that had absolutely nothing to do with religion, just being a good person overall. It was the original Christian trolls who added the specific ones for the religion

Actually, scholars say beby jizziz (new album out march, 3) was just a copy-paste of Mithras with some Osiris thrown in for good measure.
There's very little evidence the guy even existed and absolutely none that what he did happened.

Hell, it might just've been a work of fiction that some people randomly decided to take seriously. It's not less outlandish than the Aeneid or the Illiad (but a lot less entertaining, would've been badass if one of those had been picked instead).
Who knows, eventually people might start actually worshipping the FSM.


And yeah, them commandments thingies are supposed to be from Moses, and there are a lot more than 10. Several hundreds, IIRC.


Edit: Ronin, don't feed it.