Neo Nyzul Isle (Will FFXI continue? Find out on the next FFXI XP Pack!)

[Detzu]

Even on resolution? I figured it would apply to all hits like ele gorget/belt do.

The advantage would have been too big with phorcys body and ogier's legs with 10% applied to each hits. That would have been potentially + 50% dmg on resolution.
Applied to first hit it's a 2% increase on your WS dmg if you have both pieces and if i'm correct.

[fantasticdan]

The advantage would have been too big with phorcys body and ogier's legs with 10% applied to each hits. That would have been potentially + 50% dmg on resolution.

http://skepticfreethought.com/wp-con...06/wtfface.jpg

[Detzu]

http://skepticfreethought.com/wp-con...06/wtfface.jpg

what makes you skeptical? xD

[Jem]

The WSD definitely only applies to the first hit on Reso, we know this for sure. I was just asking if Motenten's spreadsheet factored that in or if it did it incorrectly and applied it to all the hits. It is already incorrect in a way as it has Phorcys Korazin down as 5% WSD when it is in fact 7%.

Also just as a comparison, I threw Borealis into the spreadsheet and it came out behind Apoc. It basically loses to Apoc by the same margin as Ragna beat Apoc.

EDIT: He's skeptical because that is not a 50% damage increase. It is simply 10% damage increase. It applying to the first hit only is a 2% increase (assuming no multihits and all hits land)

EDIT2: Grammar!

[Byrthnoth]

Also, 1.1*WS damage wouldn't increase WS damage by 50%.

[Detzu]

Also, 1.1*WS damage wouldn't increase WS damage by 50%.

Oh yeah my bad.

[Detzu]

The WSD definitely only applies to the first hit on Reso, we know this for sure. I was just asking if Motenten's spreadsheet factored that in or if it did it incorrectly and applied it to all the hits. It is already incorrect in a way already as it has Phorcys Korazin down as 5% WSD when it is in fact 7%.

Also just as a comparison, I threw Borealis into the spreadsheet and it came out behind Apoc. It basically loses to Apoc by the same margin as Ragna beat Apoc.

EDIT: He's skeptical because that is not a 50% damage increase. It is simply 10% damage increase. It applying to the first hit only is a 2% increase (assuming no multihits and all hits land)

I'm not really good at maths lol.
Can we jump to the conclusion that the only GSD that can win vs apoc is rag?

[Jem]

Err, you're probably looking at Ragna 99 + 95 and Calad 99 + 95.

Possibly the 2-4x Magian. The OA2 one doesn't but not sure about the 2-4x one as it isn't in the spreadsheet and I don't know its hit distribution to add it in. I'd suspect not because I seem to recall running off some calculations when Reso first came out and it was a decent amount behind Apoc + Ragna then but don't hold me to that as lots of ale has been consumed since! It was also with a different spreadsheet and not sure how accurate it was.

EDIT: This is assuming the Apoc is 99 too.

[Mercilessturtle]

oa2-4 should be behind oa2 no? You only gain ~16% WS damage, but you lose like 30% tp damage. It is supposedly 40:30:20:10.

[Taint]

I always favored Apoc in Nyzul. (DRK/WAR) I was the solo DD. (buyer followed me if they wanted) If the mob wasn't dieing from a single WS being able to solo darkness was a huge benefit. Only time I'd swap to Rag was during a 60,80,100 boss.

[Jem]

oa2-4 should be behind oa2 no? You only gain ~16% WS damage, but you lose like 30% tp damage. It is supposedly 40:30:20:10.

Yeah, I don't know. I ran the figures ages ago and I just remember it didn't beat Apoc or Ragna but it was a long time ago and a different spreadsheet. I can't see it beating Apoc but just wanted to cover my back really.

I always favored Apoc in Nyzul. (DRK/WAR) I was the solo DD. (buyer followed me if they wanted) If the mob wasn't dieing from a single WS being able to solo darkness was a huge benefit. Only time I'd swap to Rag was during a 60,80,100 boss.

Yeah, DRK/WAR is not far off DRK/SAM Ragna on the spreadsheet. It was something like 668 with LR up so not much in it really. I just didn't want to use Apoc DRK/WAR numbers against Ragna DRK/SAM numbers as people could easily say I was fiddling the numbers to benefit Apoc.

I do generally just facetank out of laziness as DRK/SAM when using Apoc so could see how DRK/WAR is very viable with it.

[Taint]

Yeah, I don't know. I ran the figures ages ago and I just remember it didn't beat Apoc or Ragna but it was a long time ago and a different spreadsheet. I can't see it beating Apoc but just wanted to cover my back really.




Yeah, DRK/WAR is not far off DRK/SAM Ragna on the spreadsheet. It was something like 668 with LR up so not much in it really. I just didn't want to use Apoc DRK/WAR numbers against Ragna DRK/SAM numbers as people could easily say I was fiddling the numbers to benefit Apoc.

I do generally just facetank out of laziness as DRK/SAM when using Apoc so could see how DRK/WAR is very viable with it.

I went /war just for the voke, although it was handy on 80+ NMs and boss floors.

[Slycer]

I think you guys are really blowing the importance specific DD setups out of proportion. I bet if you went in with a timer and actually timed the duration that you are engaged and actively fighting a monster during the 30 minute run, it would be on the order of 5 minutes. You have spec enemy and lamp floors where you fight nothing or almost nothing, leader and spec enemies floors where you spend more time running than fighting, and even all enemies floors you typically spend more time running/looking for mobs than fighting. The primary important DD factor is regain, since it is active whether you are engaged or not. That's why you have the SCHs there, and that's why the four DD you bring really don't matter very much (unless they are bad).

Nothing fixes stupid, and bad decisions (running the same direction, engaging the same mob, screwing up a lamp order, not having Flee ready for a lamp registration, dying without using temps, etc., etc.) are much (much much) more likely to ruin your run than the difference between a Ragnarok DRK and an Apocalypse DRK.

[Taint]

I think you guys are really blowing the importance specific DD setups out of proportion. I bet if you went in with a timer and actually timed the duration that you are engaged and actively fighting a monster during the 30 minute run, it would be on the order of 5 minutes. You have spec enemy and lamp floors where you fight nothing or almost nothing, leader and spec enemies floors where you spend more time running than fighting, and even all enemies floors you typically spend more time running/looking for mobs than fighting. The primary important DD factor is regain, since it is active whether you are engaged or not. That's why you have the SCHs there, and that's why the four DD you bring really don't matter very much (unless they are bad).

I agree 100% with this. Kill speed only matters on a handful of mobs.

[Jem]

I wholeheartedly agree but in fairness I think everyone in the conversation has already said your DD's don't matter as long as they are competent. The argument is more that some people think using Apoc is willingly gimping yourself which is obviously up for debate (but off-topic).

I only chipped in because I feel Apoc is being unreasonably bashed and the difference between it and Ragna is a lot less than people suggest. From the way people present Apoc you would think any AH GSD would beat Apoc when in reality it needs a 95/99 Ragna or Calad and even then you're talking 10% or less.

[Dotsudoku]

I did my best to clarify that I'm not suggesting a terminal gap between the two. One is better; it's that simple.

And to reiterate, the point is not to diminish the capabilities of the weapon, but to make it perfectly clear how off base it is to call it anything remotely "neccessary".

[Jem]

I did my best to clarify that I'm not suggesting a terminal gap between the two. One is better; it's that simple.

And to reiterate, the point is not to diminish the capabilities of the weapon, but to make it perfectly clear how off base it is to call it anything remotely "neccessary".

You never stated use Ragna or Calad though. You said using Apoc was willingly using the inferior weapon class (which is true but suggests that any old GSD will beat it). Then in another post said to use GSD which again suggests any greatsword will do. Probably not intentional but misleading because not everyone with Apoc has a 95/99 Ragna or Calad too and if they don't then swapping to GSD will gimp their damage not improve it.

If you did actually qualify which GSD to use I apologise as I must have missed it (forums on phones suck).

[Taint]

I did my best to clarify that I'm not suggesting a terminal gap between the two. One is better; it's that simple.

And to reiterate, the point is not to diminish the capabilities of the weapon, but to make it perfectly clear how off base it is to call it anything remotely "neccessary".

If I had to pick one weapon for NN it would be Apoc hands down, wouldn't second guess my choice. While the same wouldn't be true of most events, NN I'd take Apoc over Rag all day long.

[Dotsudoku]

That's great, but meaningless unless you're prepared to elaborate reasonably.

Heart of the cards doesn't make Apocalyse better than Rag.

[Dotsudoku]

You never stated use Ragna or Calad though. You said using Apoc was willingly using the inferior weapon class (which is true but suggests that any old GSD will beat it). Then in another post said to use GSD which again suggests any greatsword will do. Probably not intentional but misleading because not everyone with Apoc has a 95/99 Ragna or Calad too and if they don't then swapping to GSD will gimp their damage not improve it.

If you did actually qualify which GSD to use I apologise as I must have missed it (forums on phones suck).

Criticism accepted. I didn't specify, but I do assume that anyone who takes the job seriously has one of the optimal GSD by now.