Neo Nyzul Isle (Will FFXI continue? Find out on the next FFXI XP Pack!)

[arus2001]

Honestly, if the hardcores wanna grind grind grind and burn themselves out on content, that's their own damn fault. I didn't Dynamis every day. Oh no, gil lost! I wouldn't Nyzul every day. In fact, I'd be surprised if I did it more than 4 times a week if I assembled a static like I did in the old days. Suddenly I'm looking at 19 weeks for all three sets if things are flawlessly done. It only gets worse the less often someone can play.

Giving SE any reason to be lazy shits just isn't gonna fly these days, at least for those with a brain and a backbone. Gear snobbery means jack. All the geniuses here surely aren't PUGing with the perle BSTs, so it's not like them having some +2s or even +3s ends your FFXI experience. Your advantages will just have you scoring the stuff faster and moving on to new content sooner... assuming you'd actually demand SE create such content over making you do Nyzul for over a year just because you don't wanna be abyssified. Q-effin-Q.

[Motenten]

Simpler solution: Change the range of floors you go up via ??? from 2-9 to 2-10 (a completely trivial change, rather than an entirely new system implementation). That drops the average number of climbs you need to make from 18 to 16.5, which is just enough to bring it into 'doable' range for top groups, with maybe a bit of luck. Average time per floor limit goes from 100 seconds to 109 seconds.

Still implement the floor cap so you don't overshoot your target, though. That frustration isn't needed.

[Slycer]

Simpler solution: Change the range of floors you go up via ??? from 2-9 to 2-10 (a completely trivial change, rather than an entirely new system implementation). That drops the average number of climbs you need to make from 18 to 16.5, which is just enough to bring it into 'doable' range for top groups, with maybe a bit of luck. Average time per floor limit goes from 100 seconds to 109 seconds.

Still implement the floor cap so you don't overshoot your target, though. That frustration isn't needed.

These should go hand-in-hand anyway or the blessing could be a curse in disguise, i.e. when you overshoot F100 from F91. If they do make an adjustment to the random floor jumps, I think that will come later after the first round of adjustments since they are quite significant.

[Atoreis]

Honestly, if the hardcores wanna grind grind grind and burn themselves out on content, that's their own damn fault. I didn't Dynamis every day. Oh no, gil lost! I wouldn't Nyzul every day. In fact, I'd be surprised if I did it more than 4 times a week if I assembled a static like I did in the old days. Suddenly I'm looking at 19 weeks for all three sets if things are flawlessly done. It only gets worse the less often someone can play.

Giving SE any reason to be lazy shits just isn't gonna fly these days, at least for those with a brain and a backbone. Gear snobbery means jack. All the geniuses here surely aren't PUGing with the perle BSTs, so it's not like them having some +2s or even +3s ends your FFXI experience. Your advantages will just have you scoring the stuff faster and moving on to new content sooner... assuming you'd actually demand SE create such content over making you do Nyzul for over a year just because you don't wanna be abyssified. Q-effin-Q.

Always surprise me that casual players not only want to obtain best items in game but also all of them. So now not only getting one best piece is not enough but also getting only one set is not enough for casuals. Obviously 6 weeks of 2h/WEEK playtime is also fucking hardcore that your family will forget how you look.

[Yugl]

I don't see why avenues have to completely shut out casuals rather than make them take more time to obtain items. If you want an exclusive-exclusive item, go make your damn LV99 Legendv2 weapon.

[arus2001]

I'm sorry that I come from the perspective that items should be put into a game to be acquired and not arbitrarily held out of reach because someone might have their feelings hurt. The alternative is people pretty much not bothering or quitting the game if their perception of effort:reward ratios isn't adequate for them. I also don't expect people to be mindless zombies that do the same things day in and day out. Under the current Assault Tag system, players are basically punished if they don't expend them daily.

[Slycer]

Under the current Assault Tag system, players are basically punished if they don't expend them daily.

That's not true at all, that's why they accumulate for 4-5 days before losing any. Granted it would be nice if they would just accumulate indefinitely, but you certainly don't have to go every single day to make the most of what you get. I agree with the rest of what you said, though.

[Jem]

Just for Yugl we did our runs without using Fillmode/DAT edits/etc. Managed 14, 14, 19, 16 clears. The 2 14's were without Embrava, 19 + 16 were with (no other 2hrs used). No real discernible difference between using cheats and not using them. It even included the highest amount of floors we had ever jumped. Who would have thought it? Turns out 2-3 people on a run using fillmode doesn't give you a massive gamebreaking boost that is absolutely required to do well in Nyzul.

And here's how Nyzul can really fuck you. 19 floor clears including a floor boss with white magic restricted. Nothing to show for it.

1 - Lamps - Code
8 - Spec - Undead - Draugar
15 - Spec enemies - QQ's
20 - Stealthlord Haraal Ja - Tethyan Trews
23 - Spec enemies - Poroggos
27 - All - Large Birds + Yal Un eke
31 - Lamps - Same time
33 - All - Amorphs
40 - Stealthlord Haraal Ja - Tehthyan Clogs +1, Euxine Gloves +1 (White Magic Restricted)
45 - Leader - Caramel Custard
47 - Spec - Mousse
53 - Leader - Pistolium Chariot (Blue Mage Restricted)
62 - Spec Enemies - Pudding (Byakko on floor, not fought)
64 - Spec - Birds - Peryton (Khimaira on floor, not fought)
66 - Leader - Abject Farzahd
70 - All - Dragons
72 - Leader - Abject Farzahd
76 - All - Arcana + Drex the Condemned - JA Restricted (DRK died)
81 - Lamps - Code
Exit (2 mins left)

[Karbuncle]

Lamp Dat edits an movement tools would be the biggest boost i think, I can do what Film-mode can but looking up and spamming tab >_>;

Thats great to know though, You guys are doing really well.

[Byrthnoth]

idk if you really know what fillmode can do if you think that. You can target anything up to ~45' away in any direction and view any monster within 50'. If there is a lamp within 45', you can see it. If there is a monster within 45', you can /check it. Then all you need is movement, which is where flee hacking comes in.

That's why it took me about 10 minutes into my first run to declare NI would be a fleehacker's paradise.

[Karbuncle]

idk if you really know what fillmode can do if you think that. You can target anything up to ~45' away in any direction and view any monster within 50'.

Oh? Figured it just removed walls/etc. Guess i was thinking of a Wire-frame mode? Same thing? Admittedly I'm out of my element here. Didn't know it extended your view.

If there is a lamp within 45', you can see it. If there is a monster within 45', you can /check it. Then all you need is movement, which is where flee hacking comes in.

That's why it took me about 10 minutes into my first run to declare NI would be a fleehacker's paradise.

Now i can see why people were saying it would be a huge advantage. Being able to spot your ITG mob or Enemy Family basically right from the lamp would be beneficial.

[transmit]

Fillmode turns the map to a wireframe, and allows you to target things through the wall in the process. Though you still run into the walls (and will spend a lot of time doing it if you use it non-stop in nyzul)

[Yugl]

If you can show me proof of no cheats going to floor 100, I will be impressed by your group's performance and convinced. The number of jumps lends argument to the "it is doable" argument, but the difficulty of the floor should rise with level (Hence, why I mention 100) and the particular objectives you post appear to be a blessing. If I did say groups without cheats were incapable of reaching floor 80 (As opposed to 100), then you are indeed correct that the statement was false. In fact, your group has done damn well without using cheats, assuming your statement is true.

However, your conclusions are outlandish. To claim there is "no discernible difference between using cheats and not using them" implies you have 1) Averaged a number of runs using each or 2) Undertaken both instances (Cheat/No Cheat) within the exact same conditions. Neither of those is the case.

Perhaps at the risk of looking like I'm saving face, I would like to inquire as to what role cheats should play. Traditionally, we have come to understand cheats as justifiable on the grounds that they are inconsequential. This traditional view is the measure upon which people like to argue that some cheats cheat more than others. Consequently, people feel windower and associated plugins are lesser "cheats" than botting. It's the the degree to which they impinge on the outcome that we make these claims. Consequently, when dealing with the necessity of cheats for this event, we should distinguish between cheats as a necessary, excessive, or convenient force.

[Byrthnoth]

As someone who did over 100k NI tokens with fillmode, I'll say that you can get pretty good at recognizing what is or isn't a wall even with it on. I was regularly duoing 10 floors (2 mules, one left at rune).

But yeah, I can immediately tell approximately how extensive the level is (number of directions that there are monsters in), see dead-ends, spot ITG monsters, spot lamps, tell what kind of special family it will be (do we go together or split up?), find the leader (and tell what he is), etc. It is a monumental advantage. If I was going to make the "cheats other than fillmode don't matter" argument, it would be from the "fillmode is so incredibly useful that the impact of further cheats is almost undetectable."

[Jem]

For what it's worth our 5th and final run was 16 floor clears (with Embrava). Exited after killing Vryko with 3 mins remaining (Rheic Mitts +3 for someone the day after I made them Avant +1 -_-; ). We had a 1 minute time penalty earlier in the run which was unavoidable (2 gears next to lamp, never moved out of linking range to voke them without penalty). Had 2 deaths (THF on F1, SAM on F59). But also had 2 free floors which was lucky and partially made up for it.

Our 5 runs tonight had 14/14/19/16/16 clears, our previous 7 runs had 14/16/13/17/17/18/14.

We'll go back to doing runs with fillmode and DAT edits on our next runs. It's not necessary but obviously is an advantage.

[Septimus]

For what it's worth our 5th and final run was 16 floor clears (with Embrava). Exited after killing Vryko with 3 mins remaining (Rheic Mitts +3 for someone the day after I made them Avant +1 -_-; ). We had a 1 minute time penalty earlier in the run which was unavoidable (2 gears next to lamp, never moved out of linking range to voke them without penalty). Had 2 deaths (THF on F1, SAM on F59). But also had 2 free floors which was lucky and partially made up for it.

Our 5 runs tonight had 14/14/19/16/16 clears, our previous 7 runs had 14/16/13/17/17/18/14.

We'll go back to doing runs with fillmode and DAT edits on our next runs. It's not necessary but obviously is an advantage.

If they are not necessary then don't bother using them.

[noodles355]

Yes. Yes, I do think it's a good games design.

You had a good post with many good points some of which I agree with, some which I don't. And I had started responding on certain points.

However, then you went and wrote this:

And this sums up the problem that I described above in detail. Your pixel achievements mean nothing. Zero. Zilch. They'll be gone and forgotten once the game shutsdown and no one will care, not your friends, not your family, not your boss or work collegues. You will have achieved nothing. And you've not even had fun while doing it because it was nothing but an arduous grind of the same events over and over. Fun the first few times maybe... then an incredible chore for the remaining few years until you obtained every piece of gear you needed from them. But maybe not for you, coz by the way you're defending these systems it almost sounds like you're one of the people that use tools to achieve their goals. Making your life easy eh? You don't really get to say anything in that case. Even if the only thing you ever used in your life was fillmode.

And I decided you're not worth it.

I still have no idea why people are making such a big deal out of fucking fillmode and changed dats. I mean really, in a community where tools like spellcast and other things that improve player performance are common and accepted, people are complaining about fillmode and changing npc name dats? Really?

Using named lamp dats will save you maybe 30-120 seconds on a lamp order floor. Fillmode will save you between 0-30 seconds on a Spec. Enemy or Leader floor.

It's not game breaking shit, it's a mild convenience, like spellcast and extended macros. I really fail to see why people need to focus on it so much. Flee hacking and walking through walls? Sure, but fillmode? seriously? If you're going to complain about fillmode/dats in nyzul, you should complain about spellcast too.

[noodles355]

Honestly, if the hardcores wanna grind grind grind and burn themselves out on content, that's their own damn fault. I didn't Dynamis every day. Oh no, gil lost! I wouldn't Nyzul every day. In fact, I'd be surprised if I did it more than 4 times a week if I assembled a static like I did in the old days. Suddenly I'm looking at 19 weeks for all three sets if things are flawlessly done. It only gets worse the less often someone can play.

Giving SE any reason to be lazy shits just isn't gonna fly these days, at least for those with a brain and a backbone. Gear snobbery means jack. All the geniuses here surely aren't PUGing with the perle BSTs, so it's not like them having some +2s or even +3s ends your FFXI experience. Your advantages will just have you scoring the stuff faster and moving on to new content sooner... assuming you'd actually demand SE create such content over making you do Nyzul for over a year just because you don't wanna be abyssified. Q-effin-Q.

You seem to be under the impression that SE has the resources to release content as fast as you want it, or that all of our combined bitching together would at all change the priorities of the company to give SE the means to meet your demands.

[Dotsudoku]

Did you just compare otherwise equipment swapping to being able to see a single enemy through twists and turns in a fairly large and winding area?

I'm not opposed to any of the things in question, but that's ludicrous.

[calinz]

You had a good post with many good points some of which I agree with, some which I don't. And I had started responding on certain points.

However, then you went and wrote this:

And I decided you're not worth it.

I still have no idea why people are making such a big deal out of fucking fillmode and changed dats. I mean really, in a community where tools like spellcast and other things that improve player performance are common and accepted, people are complaining about fillmode and changing npc name dats? Really?

Using named lamp dats will save you maybe 30-120 seconds on a lamp order floor. Fillmode will save you between 0-30 seconds on a Spec. Enemy or Leader floor.

It's not game breaking shit, it's a mild convenience, like spellcast and extended macros. I really fail to see why people need to focus on it so much. Flee hacking and walking through walls? Sure, but fillmode? seriously? If you're going to complain about fillmode/dats in nyzul, you should complain about spellcast too.

Since it's 4 am, and you think I'm not worth it, I'm just going to quote what byrth said quite well that applies pretty much to your entire post, and as you can see from some of the replies I'm not the only one who thinks your statements are ludicrous.

idk if you really know what fillmode can do if you think that. You can target anything up to ~45' away in any direction and view any monster within 50'. If there is a lamp within 45', you can see it. If there is a monster within 45', you can /check it. Then all you need is movement, which is where flee hacking comes in.

If I was going to make the "cheats other than fillmode don't matter" argument, it would be from the "fillmode is so incredibly useful that the impact of further cheats is almost undetectable."