Neo Nyzul Isle (Will FFXI continue? Find out on the next FFXI XP Pack!)

**arus2001** · 2012-03-01 16:14

Only works if you run with the same 6 people every time. Either way, so what? People get rewarded.

I am still waiting for your few hundred thousand reasons why you think SE can justify moving it's available resources to FFXI.

For all the talk of thinking like a business, I really am surprised this is flew over your head. Their customers are those reasons. Rather simply, money generated by FFXI should go toward FFXI first to both sustain and grow the customer base. That doesn't mean all of it, but more than what funds the current skeleton crew and prioritizes grind-happy content over freshness and variety. What's going on now would be like me opening a video store that profits for a few years, only to suddenly start a business in tire sales from it. However, with that business failing, I start taking more funds from the video store to try and salvage it, resulting in less content for my customers to access, hoping that maybe one day I'll be a tire tycoon instead of just closing the tire joint. Enough people come to my old place and find what they want isn't there, it's off to Redbox, Netflix, Blockbuster, On-Demand, or other chains. You just can't let MMOs stagnate and expect them to thrive. It's anathema to the genre as games that are updated meaningfully.

It's actually pretty funny when I dip into other MMOs and mention I play(ed) FFXI. Too often the responses from others are negative if they've actually played it. Those who haven't often say they avoided it because of negative opinion. It's pretty much a classic case of bad business and bad PR on SE's end. Whoever's in charge on SE's end is so caught up in hoping for the next big lottery ticket title that they really are bleeding off what had been a consistent money maker for nearly a decade. I can't entirely blame XIV for this, even though its influence is evident. SE also has its paws in music, manga, and anime, so it's not like they aren't making money in things beyond games. Maybe there's just some weird JP pride or cultural thing we're not grasping as the vile NAs, but FFXI could be in a much different place right now if it hadn't been so neglected over the years.

**Atoreis** · 2012-03-01 16:21

The real problem with this exchange system is... they will test it for month instead of just trowing it for us already :/

**Raelia** · 2012-03-01 16:30

I don't see any reason to spam 80 if you can make 100 even 50% of the time when no longer worried about wraparound. Even making it to 100 only 10% of the time would net you more pieces than doing 80 25 times for just one, and eventually give you whatever piece you're missing anyway.

**Atoreis** · 2012-03-01 16:47

Originally Posted by Raelia

I don't see any reason to spam 80 if you can make 100 even 50% of the time when no longer worried about wraparound. Even making it to 100 only 10% of the time would net you more pieces than doing 80 25 times for just one, and eventually give you whatever piece you're missing anyway.

Well its really pointless argument. Every group will do what whey think will benefit them more.

**Atoreis** · 2012-03-01 17:12

Oh btw I think problem with having THF for TH or better DD to improve climbing rate is kinda solved too
INB4: Im talking about best equipped jobs not Mandau99/Twashy99 THF vs random SAM for example because I realize that top tier THF can be very decent at this event.

**Churchill** · 2012-03-01 17:23

I think 25 is a lot, but then again I didn't think the previous system was bad, this + stopper is sort of icing really. Maybe if afterByrth stops taking vacations to all male nude beaches in France we can do some more runs

**Nightfyre** · 2012-03-01 18:53

25 is fine. Set your stopper at 100, target 80 instead if a run isn't going as well as you'd hope. 100 is going to drop what, 6-9 pieces now? Assuming the 100 boss still has normal drops. Pretty nice. If you can't make 100 you have a second option that offers measurable progress for your entire group.

EDIT:

Originally Posted by Sho

Yugl, don't you use Spellcast? You really can't have an opinion about others using fillmode or clipper if you do.

lolwhat?

**Sho** · 2012-03-01 21:58

Originally Posted by Yugl

I probably use more shit than most people here. The debate isn't about the ethics of cheats; the only ones that make such a claim are those that jump into the discussion and assume it's the old debate revisited. It's about the necessity of cheats to clear Neo-Nyzul. As it stands, no one has reached or surpassed floor 100 without cheats. Consequently, it makes the event analogous to AV in that the only close attempts have depended on breaking the system (Whether justified or not is unimportant). Jem's group has tried to break this claim by doing a few runs without cheats and that is what sparked the more recent debate on cheats. I submitted that floor 80 is achievable through their achievement, but I retain doubts about floor 100 aside from obscenely benign floor jumps and objectives. Notice that I'm not alone in pointing out the benefits of cheating; however, people feel comfortable picking me out of the crowd.

As a concluding remark, I agree that cheating is cheating. However, to infer from this that all cheating confers the same benefit is a truly remarkable display of ignorance.

I take a few words back then since I read it wrong. It's still a pretty silly debate. I posted way back on page 5 that the event is designed as content that people have been clamoring for since Abyssea got retarded with Scars. People shouted for harder content instead of easy mode shit. People got it, and are now back to complaining again. The event in question was designed for the most top geared and "elite" players within FFXI, It's clearly designed so casuals will not make it to the top without making a vast effort in being prepared for it. The crazy overshooting of floor 20/40/60/80/100 was obviously a poor choice on SE's end, and they were quick to fix that up as well as add incentive for attempting climbs. Well prepared people can very well make it to the top using no 3rd party tools of any kind.

As Jem recently said, people can make it [legitimately], it just won't be every single time. This is how SE wanted it. Come on guys, this is SE we are talking about. With Tanaka still at the helm (as the inside joke goes, yea?). I think people were thinking just anyone casual to mid serious could make it. This event is exactly what people made all of those relics, mythics, and emps as well as got top quality gear for. I'm gonna bet Legion and "The Last Stand" will be just as hard if not harder in various ways.

Originally Posted by Nightfyre

25 is fine. Set your stopper at 100, target 80 instead if a run isn't going as well as you'd hope. 100 is going to drop what, 6-9 pieces now? Assuming the 100 boss still has normal drops. Pretty nice. If you can't make 100 you have a second option that offers measurable progress for your entire group.

EDIT:

lolwhat?

I said that in reference to him talking about legitimacy of climbing. No matter how you look at it, Spellcast is an 3rd Party Tool (see: advantage) that people shouldn't be using (based on SE's rules). There's no list on what 3rd Party Tool is more severe than the other when you use it, they are all not supposed to be used, lol.

**Imoq** · 2012-03-01 22:20

Pic in Guildwork showing floor 100 beat:

Spoiler: show

**Darkmagi** · 2012-03-01 22:22

linen purse!

**coder** · 2012-03-01 22:33

Originally Posted by Imoq

Pic in Guildwork showing floor 100 beat:

Spoiler: show

There is also a title that goes with floor 100 clear if it wasn't known yet (or anybody cares): 'Delver of the Depths'

**dasva** · 2012-03-01 22:42

Now to have someone do it legitmately!!!

**Darkmagi** · 2012-03-01 22:45

Not abusing flillmode and lamp .dats at the very least is quite counter productive if you actually have access to them. Only excuse people can have is not using clipper, because that could actually get you banned. So unlikely.

**coder** · 2012-03-01 22:52

Originally Posted by dasva

Now to have someone do it legitmately!!!

Sadly I'm one of 'those guys' I won't use clipper. Wireframe and lamp .dats were in use and only one of the six members used clipper to go through a single wall on a single floor to get back to the lamp, for those that were curious.

edit: Also killed boss with 1 minute remaining. Also was only one instance of ordered lamps

1 - all
10 - Leader Qiqirn bomber
14 - Lamps order
21 - all
27 - Leader Imp
35 - Specified 1 funguar
42 - Lamps same time
48 - Leader Chariot
55 - Specified 1 Wyvern
60 - Leader Mamool Boss
67 - Lamps Code
76 - Leader Soulflayer
84 - Lamps same time
91 - Leader Imp
100

**Yugl** · 2012-03-01 23:17

@Sho:

Spoiler: show

If you want to make an argument for gear changes, spellcast is not your target. As Byrthnoth stated during a different debate, access to windower macros from normal macros is a greater degree of improvement than from windower macros to spellcast. Even then, I cannot think of an event where such improvement is a necessary condition. Although you and Jem claim 100 is possible without cheats, neither of have you have proof. It is an asserted claim, not a proven one. It's existence is purely statistical in nature (In that we only entertain the possibility because we assume it is possible to get the easiest floors and the easiest jumps).

On the issue of severity of cheats, it should be painfully obvious that some cheats will help you more than others. If you cannot understand why, then you ought to consult someone. In fact, clipper and fillmode, taken to their extreme, are more powerful than anything windower or spellcast macros offer. You can use over six pieces of gear through macro linking (A technique I proudly employed when I played PS2 1.5yrs ago). Contrarily, you cannot compensate for access to absolute 50' vision. You cannot compensate for full-time flee. You cannot compensate for the ability to run through walls. You cannot compensate for instant knowledge of the number of lamps in order/same-time objectives using a single lamp. It is painfully clear that not all cheats confer the same benefit.

Finally, to tie a few loose and unaddressed ends. As previously stated in my former post, is on par with pre-nerf AV. I could grant you the reaches and over-jumps as successes (unnecessarily help your argument) and we still have no instance where tools are uninvolved. The absurdity of your assertion is to the degree that we may say AV was defeatable by having everyone's shadow ring and mantle procs. It's only by virtue of the fact that the possibility exists that you can make that claim. Consequently, the weakness of the English language is that you don't realize the absurdity of the claim because its inability to elucidate non-subjective differences in possibility without reference to numbers. The analogy draws closer regarding your treatment of gear proliferation and skill.

With regard to gear proliferation, it has been said that the gear is not intended for everyone. Who are you and what department of SE do you work for? There's a difference between consequent action and intended purpose. I, hopefully, do not need to explicate that on BG. Even if that is the intent, it seems quite absurd to accept it. Acceptance lends support to those who warn that it will serve as a cap for future gear and justify minimal stat boosts reminiscent of the level 75 era. The absurdity of it all is that people familiar with mechanics can tell you that 1STR will sometimes have zero effect on your damage. The consequences of accepting your opinion are objectionable even if subjective (As your opinion is).

With regard to skill, this claim is the most absurd of all claims I have heard. First, it demonstrates ignorance of the topic at hand. The only tools that lend themselves to skill are windower and spellcast. These tools, used extensively, manifest your understanding of the game mechanics by enabling you to particularize gear as it applies. The ability to particularize gear effectively depends on your "skill." Contrary to your opinion, Nyzul undermines the effectiveness of skill, characterized as knowledge+gear+execution+planning, because groups equal on all accounts will display vastly varying results. If your argument were to say that having shit for gear compared to quality gear makes a difference, then you have to extend that claim to many other events. The difference, however, is that one cannot substitute skill with luck to the degree that you can in Nyzul because it fails to impinge upon central aspects of the event. Specifically, objective-specific information, floor objectives, and floor jump value. Tools enhance a group's access to the first point. Nothing affects the latter two points (At least, to our information). Yet, in no other event does enhancement of the first point, proliferated via tools, affect the result to the degree that it does in Nyzul. Therefore, Nyzul's demonstration of skill is worst than many other events where access to tools cannot compensate for skill.

Edit: Spoilered since we have good news now.

**Sho** · 2012-03-02 00:15

Originally Posted by Yugl

@Sho:

Spoiler: show

If you want to make an argument for gear changes, spellcast is not your target. As Byrthnoth stated during a different debate, access to windower macros from normal macros is a greater degree of improvement than from windower macros to spellcast. Even then, I cannot think of an event where such improvement is a necessary condition. Although you and Jem claim 100 is possible without cheats, neither of have you have proof. It is an asserted claim, not a proven one. It's existence is purely statistical in nature (In that we only entertain the possibility because we assume it is possible to get the easiest floors and the easiest jumps).

On the issue of severity of cheats, it should be painfully obvious that some cheats will help you more than others. If you cannot understand why, then you ought to consult someone. In fact, clipper and fillmode, taken to their extreme, are more powerful than anything windower or spellcast macros offer. You can use over six pieces of gear through macro linking (A technique I proudly employed when I played PS2 1.5yrs ago). Contrarily, you cannot compensate for access to absolute 50' vision. You cannot compensate for full-time flee. You cannot compensate for the ability to run through walls. You cannot compensate for instant knowledge of the number of lamps in order/same-time objectives using a single lamp. It is painfully clear that not all cheats confer the same benefit.

Finally, to tie a few loose and unaddressed ends. As previously stated in my former post, is on par with pre-nerf AV. I could grant you the reaches and over-jumps as successes (unnecessarily help your argument) and we still have no instance where tools are uninvolved. The absurdity of your assertion is to the degree that we may say AV was defeatable by having everyone's shadow ring and mantle procs. It's only by virtue of the fact that the possibility exists that you can make that claim. Consequently, the weakness of the English language is that you don't realize the absurdity of the claim because its inability to elucidate non-subjective differences in possibility without reference to numbers. The analogy draws closer regarding your treatment of gear proliferation and skill.

With regard to gear proliferation, it has been said that the gear is not intended for everyone. Who are you and what department of SE do you work for? There's a difference between consequent action and intended purpose. I, hopefully, do not need to explicate that on BG. Even if that is the intent, it seems quite absurd to accept it. Acceptance lends support to those who warn that it will serve as a cap for future gear and justify minimal stat boosts reminiscent of the level 75 era. The absurdity of it all is that people familiar with mechanics can tell you that 1STR will sometimes have zero effect on your damage. The consequences of accepting your opinion are objectionable even if subjective (As your opinion is).

With regard to skill, this claim is the most absurd of all claims I have heard. First, it demonstrates ignorance of the topic at hand. The only tools that lend themselves to skill are windower and spellcast. These tools, used extensively, manifest your understanding of the game mechanics by enabling you to particularize gear as it applies. The ability to particularize gear effectively depends on your "skill." Contrary to your opinion, Nyzul undermines the effectiveness of skill, characterized as knowledge+gear+execution+planning, because groups equal on all accounts will display vastly varying results. If your argument were to say that having shit for gear compared to quality gear makes a difference, then you have to extend that claim to many other events. The difference, however, is that one cannot substitute skill with luck to the degree that you can in Nyzul because it fails to impinge upon central aspects of the event. Specifically, objective-specific information, floor objectives, and floor jump value. Tools enhance a group's access to the first point. Nothing affects the latter two points (At least, to our information). Yet, in no other event does enhancement of the first point, proliferated via tools, affect the result to the degree that it does in Nyzul. Therefore, Nyzul's demonstration of skill is worst than many other events where access to tools cannot compensate for skill.

Edit: Spoilered since we have good news now.

Spoiler: show

**Yugl** · 2012-03-02 00:45

Originally Posted by Sho

Spoiler: show

First, that they are all cheats has no bearing on the issue at hand. I can assert that they are all cheats and that they confer different benefits. As I made clear in my initial response and Septimus did in his subsequent follow up, the question is not whether they are cheats. You seem incapable of acknowledging that this discussion is different from the typical "Is it right or wrong"/"Is it cheating or is it not cheating" discussion. The subject of discussion is not about cheats, it is about Neo Nyzul Isle's design. Is it a good or bad design? That the only known accomplishments have involved cheating is justification for the latter. That is the only reason why cheats come up in this discussion. Your spellcast/windower argument is only relevant if previous events that we deem "good design" required windower/spellcast. I reject this line of argument. Therefore, you were wrong to suggest that I want to "boil windower/spellcast down to...'needed'." I make the opposite claim.

You claim there the analogy does not hold for several reasons, but they are flawed. You claim roughly "If an even is made without tools in mind (Safe assumption), then the event is doable without tools" and "Nyzul isle is an event made without tools in mind"; therefore, Nyzul Isle success does not rely upon tools. Yet, we know that SE's intentions do not always accord with their results. You acknowledge this when you mention AV, PW, and Mountain quest. Consequently, you make a contradiction because we have an instance in which there exists an event without tools in mind (Unless you wish to claim that they made AV, PW, and Mountain-quest with tools in mind!), yet tools are required (Though your statement is false even then because with the exception of the mountain-quest, tools were not a saving device; HP nerf on AV, PW nerf, and glitches were).

You claim that preparation and luck are all that are needed to win. These apply just as easily to your "flawed events" as well. If you are lucky to have critical procs of Shadow ring/mantle on every player, you could win. There is nothing logically contradicting that claim unless we find that multiple procs are impossible. Yet, I bet few would seriously propose that this means the event was not broken simply because you could win. It's as utterly absurd as saying the current event in question is not broken because one could get lucky with floor objectives and jumps. At the very least, you cannot maintain that Nyzul is about skill, more than other events, while holding this claim.

The most revealing part of this is the following:
A group with perfect control over their facilities (Gear, tactics, and such) will have a worst chance of winning than a group that is not nearly as competent but has substantially better floor jumps/objectives.

**Sho** · 2012-03-02 01:08

Originally Posted by Yugl

Spoiler: show

First, that they are all cheats has no bearing on the issue at hand. I can assert that they are all cheats and that they confer different benefits. As I made clear in my initial response and Septimus did in his subsequent follow up, the question is not whether they are cheats. You seem incapable of acknowledging that this discussion is different from the typical "Is it right or wrong"/"Is it cheating or is it not cheating" discussion. The subject of discussion is not about cheats, it is about Neo Nyzul Isle's design. Is it a good or bad design? That the only known accomplishments have involved cheating is justification for the latter. That is the only reason why cheats come up in this discussion. Your spellcast/windower argument is only relevant if previous events that we deem "good design" required windower/spellcast. I reject this line of argument. Therefore, you were wrong to suggest that I want to "boil windower/spellcast down to...'needed'." I make the opposite claim.

You claim there the analogy does not hold for several reasons, but they are flawed. You claim roughly "If an even is made without tools in mind (Safe assumption), then the event is doable without tools" and "Nyzul isle is an event made without tools in mind"; therefore, Nyzul Isle success does not rely upon tools. Yet, we know that SE's intentions do not always accord with their results. You acknowledge this when you mention AV, PW, and Mountain quest. Consequently, you make a contradiction because we have an instance in which there exists an event without tools in mind (Unless you wish to claim that they made AV, PW, and Mountain-quest with tools in mind!), yet tools are required (Though your statement is false even then because with the exception of the mountain-quest, tools were not a saving device; HP nerf on AV, PW nerf, and glitches were).

You claim that preparation and luck are all that are needed to win. These apply just as easily to your "flawed events" as well. If you are lucky to have critical procs of Shadow ring/mantle on every player, you could win. There is nothing logically contradicting that claim unless we find that multiple procs are impossible. Yet, I bet few would seriously propose that this means the event was not broken simply because you could win. It's as utterly absurd as saying the current event in question is not broken because one could get lucky with floor objectives and jumps. At the very least, you cannot maintain that Nyzul is about skill, more than other events, while holding this claim.

The most revealing part of this is the following:
A group with perfect control over their facilities (Gear, tactics, and such) will have a worst chance of winning than a group that is not nearly as competent but has substantially better floor jumps/objectives.

Spoiler: show

**Deader2818** · 2012-03-02 01:13

If I want to reply to this, do I have to spoiler?

**Kipling** · 2012-03-02 03:05

Originally Posted by Jornna

If I want to reply to this, do I have to spoiler?

Spoiler: show

Thread: Neo Nyzul Isle (Will FFXI continue? Find out on the next FFXI XP Pack!)

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