Free Health Care (Canada)

[Sera]

I really wish I could give you guys some insight into how horribly ran our "private" insurance is ran. For Kaylia to say it's efficient is fucking laughable. You know why you waited four hours for an emergency appendectomy? Because other than the assessments and shit to determine to cause, we have to get you to sign a consent form, call your insurance company, spend a significant time on the phone to make sure it's covered, then get your ass into surgery. if we don't verify the coverage with the insurance company, the hospital foots the bill. This does happen a lot, patient safety is first, but when it does happen, insurance refuses to pay, the patient obviously isn't held liable, so it's on the hospital. Theres a reason your 3 day stay is $20,000, we have to make up for losses somewhere, so treatment is expensive. It's really not as simple as going in, putting on a bracelet, and getting cut open. There's a ton of shit going on behind the scenes.

This. Hospitals also are required by federal law to care for anyone who walks in, regardless of insurance status, AND they're required to show that a predetermined required amount of indigent (sp?) care is given, too. Every hospital has to prove that a certain number of their patients are homeless and or uninsured/underinsured. Nothing is free. The insurance industry is every drop as corrupt as the banking industry.

I actually was on the side against universal health care until I did the tiniest bit of actual research into the matter and found out I was completely ignorant of anything resembling facts.

So proud of you right now

[Kaylia]

canadian conservatives* fucked up the canadian healthcare system.

can't run a system when you don't fund it properly, bros. OBVIOUSLY an underfunded system would not work, just as a car doesn't work when you don't pay to put gas in it, no matter HOW nice the car is.

edit: and this was done ON PURPOSE btw. What better way to discredit the concept of universal healthcare than by instituting it and then cutting it off at the knees by GROSSLY underfunding it?

SEE GUYS? UNIVERSAL HEALTHCARE DOESN'T WORK!

Except it does, in lots of other places that are not canada. derp.

but yeah, keep eating up that "evidence" of failure, because it is totally not on purpose at all!

Also to post above: I have LONG shared that sentiment. People use the ER because they don't know where else to go and they're used to it. The idea way to fix this situation IMO would be to create another level of care -- something between the doc's office and the ER. ERs should be tending to people with IMMEDIATELY LIFE THREATENING and dangerous situations -- heart attacks, strokes, seizures, etc. An Urgent Care type of facility would be ideal here. Something that's open 24h, triages properly and quickly, and treats stuff like ear infections, high fevers, broken arms, the flu, upper respiratory stuff, etc. Have them open, accessible and educate the people on what sort of things go to what places. Emphasize that YOU WILL BE SEEN FASTER at URGENT CARE than at the ER for non-emergency issues, but if it is LIFE threatening, you should go to the ER. Education would be key here, people would need to know and understand the system and why it would benefit them to do what they are being asked to do. They could be seen for things that they're most likely not going to die from but they still need to be seen after hours, or seen quickly assuming the MD office can't fit them in for that day. I think if there were a tier like that between ER tier and MD office tier, people would use it -- and the ERs could get back to handling things they should be handling.

The flaw isn't in the concept of UHS, the flaw is usually in the design of it.

What the fuck are you talking about. The retarded wait list in hospital started a long time ago, and has nothing to do with left/right wing debate. It's an issue of poor management that has existed for two decades, if not more. Secondly, health care is handled by the province, not by the federal goverment. Quebec is one of the most left-winged provinced there is.

Lastly, you can't say it's underfunded when 50% of your taxes (which are considerable) are directed toward our health system. We're reaching a point where it will be cheaper to send people in Cuba for health care

="Linliel"]That's pretty good, imo. I dunno what it's like in Canada but don't tar every system with the same brush.

I'm not, but I do wonder if it's the fate most health care will know over the next 20 years.

[Caiyuo]

waiting for darus to show up and put on a clinic

[Blarg]

I've looked at some of the studies comparing U.S. wait times to Canadian wait times. In one, they cited Quebec as the most egregious, with something like 20-25+ hour waits, as opposed to 1-4-hour waits in the U.S.

However, then with a little digging it came out that the numbers being used were not the same. The 20+ hour waits in Canada were numbers taken from the time of admittance until the time of discharge, whereas the U.S. numbers were pure waiting room time.

canadian times are also in Celsius so you have to factor that in

[RKenshin]

What the fuck are you talking about. The retarded wait list in hospital started a long time ago, and has nothing to do with left/right wing debate. It's an issue of poor management that has existed for two decades, if not more. Secondly, health care is handled by the province, not by the federal goverment. Quebec is one of the most left-winged provinced there is.

By admitting its an issue of poor management, and thereby not a matter of whether universal healthcare really works or not, aren't you agreeing with Sera (at least on some level)?

Lastly, you can't say it's underfunded when 50% of your taxes (which are considerable) are directed toward our health system. We're reaching a point where it will be cheaper to send people in Cuba for health care

I know nothing about it, but 50% of it goes solely to healthcare? That number exaggerated?

[Raldo]

It's a real shame that you can't fine people for being unhealthy.

[Rhyis.]

I know nothing about it, but 50% of it goes solely to healthcare? That number exaggerated?

http://www.fin.gc.ca/tax-impot/2010/html-eng.asp

http://www.fin.gc.ca/tax-impot/2010/dollar-eng.jpg

Depends on how you want to look at it. The realistic answer is no, not even close.

[Melena]

And who is to determine what is healthy and unhealthy? Yea for 99.9% of the people out there, doing drugs, smoking, and drinking whiskey as your primary diet will kill a normal man. Yet Lemmy from Motorhead is probably more healthy then 70% of the people posting here? Should he be fined since his body has an immunity to shit that would kill us? Employers, which is where most people in the US get their insurance can already decide whether to hire/fire someone based on if they smoke, do drugs, drink excessively, etc. No reason to fine people as well.

[Kuya]

What the fuck are you talking about. The retarded wait list in hospital started a long time ago, and has nothing to do with left/right wing debate. It's an issue of poor management that has existed for two decades, if not more. Secondly, health care is handled by the province, not by the federal goverment. Quebec is one of the most left-winged provinced there is.

Lastly, you can't say it's underfunded when 50% of your taxes (which are considerable) are directed toward our health system. We're reaching a point where it will be cheaper to send people in Cuba for health care




I'm not, but I do wonder if it's the fate most health care will know over the next 20 years.

Cuba's healthcare is publically funded, and also known as the best in Latin america.

[Rhyis.]

France has free healthcare as well and is considered the best in the world.

[Sera]

Listen, hospital care isn't being at a fucking hotel. We're sorry that we can't snap our fingers and make you first in the triage. We're all about fixing your broken arm (and omg you'd be getting it fixed FOR FUCKING FREE! ARE YOU KIDDING ME? DO YOU KNOW how many of us would KILL for that?) but frankly, there is a goddamn line and you are not the only person on the planet, and I am a nurse not a fucking butler or a concierge. Cut the richie rich entitlement crap, you're at a hospital for an illness, not the Plaza hotel for a staycation. There are units that are LIKE hotels (the hospital I worked at in VA had Gumenick Suites for example), but you'll pay $400 a night out of pocket to stay there. They'll let you act like a fucking brat there, if you want: otherwise calm the fuck down. It sucks that you have to wait, but sometimes that is just life. People in the USA have to wait and then spend the REST OF THEIR LIVES IN DEBT and LOSE THEIR HOMES over the cost of their care (my gran's brain surgery was $250,000 until she allowed the STUDENTS to do it under supervision, then they cut the cost down to $75,000.) And BTW: she had to walk around with a brain tumor that was 1mm from KILLING HER for 3 weeks before she could get that surgery. Sell your boohoos elsewhere.)

Again, maybe if everyone and their goddamn grandmother didn't use the ER for a case of the sniffles, life wouldn't be like that: but guess what? It is -- both in the USA and in Canada apparently, but that has NOTHING to do with our system being better. If you really think our system is better, I can't wait to see you come down here and lose your house when you can't pay the KABILLION DOLLARS in medical bills they're going to charge you.

We're so sorry that you had to wait 4 hours, but we don't fucking care because we're too busy BECOMING HOMELESS over medical bills, you great twat.

By admitting its an issue of poor management, and thereby not a matter of whether universal healthcare really works or not, aren't you agreeing with Sera (at least on some level)?
I know nothing about it, but 50% of it goes solely to healthcare? That number exaggerated?

My point is unaffected by her response. Poor management aside, PLENTY of countries manage to pull this off and the people seem happy enough, so that PROVES that the concept isn't the problem, the execution is. 50% is probably their income tax rate or something of that nature, but as you can see, barely any of that seems to go towards their UHS. Which actually only PROVED my point further.

Also, "lost his appendix"? Are you mental? Who the fuck cares? You act like he lost a goddamn lung. The appendix isn't even REMOTELY crucial. Losing his PINKY TOE would have been more of a tragedy.

[Howie Roary]

Ain't nothing fun about a Q-tip going up your dick. I mean, unless you're into that sort of thing (and it is OK if you are[also, I guess that would explain why you're going monthly])

when's the last time you got tested? 10 years ago I was told anything they used to use the q-tip for can be obtained from a urine sample

anyone still shoving q-tips is trying to encourage you to stop having unprotected/unsafe interocurse

[xopher]

Where am I suppose to go when I break my arms?

The emergency room. But you shouldn't go there when you have a cold or a sprained ankle.

And we don't have such thing as a "general practice clinic".

Problem #1.

[Pirian]

when's the last time you got tested? 10 years ago I was told anything they used to use the q-tip for can be obtained from a urine sample

anyone still shoving q-tips is trying to encourage you to stop having unprotected/unsafe interocurse

2 years ago I had symptoms from what seemed like a UTI, but because it's uncommon for males and I was only fucking 1 girl at the time, I had the gonorrhea test. It was the first time I had such test, and I had no prior knowledge of what it would entail. The doc that did it was hot, and I'm a bit of a masochist, so I didn't mind too much

[Ksandra]

Anyone against universal healthcare is dumb. Though I do hope that when we finally get it in the US,California gets its head out of its ass and actually builds some walk-in clinics. So weird they have none here. (at last in socal)

[Mazmaz]

Do I need to point out that all the evidence you posted was from Quebec btw? I realise you live there, but didn't you yourself say that Quebec's government was corrupt and amidst scandal? Maybe there's some mishandling of the province's health transfer?

I have a general medical clinic 5 minute walk from my house that's open something like 8AM to 10PM? Off the top of my head, I know another clinic about 5 minutes drive from my house that's open 24H. And I don't even live in Vancouver's metropolis. I live in the suburbs of North Vancouver.

[Rhyis.]

Quebecers aren't people anyway. Don't deserve treatment.

[Kaylia]

http://www.fin.gc.ca/tax-impot/2010/html-eng.asp

http://www.fin.gc.ca/tax-impot/2010/dollar-eng.jpg

Depends on how you want to look at it. The realistic answer is no, not even close.

~20% of your taxes goes to the federal goverment
~20% of your taxes goes toward our provincial goverment (québec)

Your chart here only consider the first 20%.

You're also forgetting that most of the system is handled by province themselves, and that's where the biggest part of the bill is hidden.
http://www.budget.finances.gouv.qc.c...BudgetPlan.pdf

Health budget is 33 billions, revenue for the province are at 63 billions. That's 50% of the province's budget.

What people perceive as medical emergencies and what are actual emergencies are two different things. A fracture isn't (although, admittedly it can be) an emergency. Four hours isn't going to harm you in most circumstances. People with chest pain are getting seen before your silly broken arm, as they should.

Edit: Just read Sera's post. P. much nailed it, I'm assuming she's also a nurse.

Did you read any links I posted? How do you explain the long delay in queues for life threatening surgery? How do you explain that people died in waiting room without getting checked? As time pass, the quality of this service is getting worse, and the budget keep increasing at a rate faster than the inflation itself.

The issue isn't just limited to "non life-threatening problems", the quality of the service has been going down for the last 20 years in every category. While you limit yourself to very ideological point of view, what I see is a system that cost more and more, while giving us less and less the older it get. It needs a reform.

I really wish I could give you guys some insight into how horribly ran our "private" insurance is ran. For Kaylia to say it's efficient is fucking laughable. You know why you waited four hours for an emergency appendectomy? Because other than the assessments and shit to determine to cause, we have to get you to sign a consent form, call your insurance company, spend a significant time on the phone to make sure it's covered, then get your ass into surgery. if we don't verify the coverage with the insurance company, the hospital foots the bill. This does happen a lot, patient safety is first, but when it does happen, insurance refuses to pay, the patient obviously isn't held liable, so it's on the hospital. Theres a reason your 3 day stay is $20,000, we have to make up for losses somewhere, so treatment is expensive. It's really not as simple as going in, putting on a bracelet, and getting cut open. There's a ton of shit going on behind the scenes.

Why does everything have to be black or white? Just because I'm against our current system doesn't mean I'm for the opposite. Don't put word in my mouth please.


Do you seriously think there is no possible abuse in a public system because you have seen abuse in a private healthcare? Do you think that a public healthcare isn't at the mercy of pharmaceutical company either?
http://www.fraserinstitute.org/uploa...radox-2010.pdf

Based on available data, in currency-equivalent terms, Canadian
retail prices for generic prescription drugs in 2008 were 90 percent
higher on average than retail prices in the United States for
identical drugs

However, nobody really give a damn about stuff like that because no one is really aware of the real cost of healthcare. Everything is free, so who cares how much it cost!

[hey]

umad

[Kuya]

~20% of your taxes goes to the federal goverment
~20% of your taxes goes toward our provincial goverment (québec)

Your chart here only consider the first 20%.

You're also forgetting that most of the system is handled by province themselves, and that's where the biggest part of the bill is hidden.
http://www.budget.finances.gouv.qc.c...BudgetPlan.pdf

Health budget is 33 billions, revenue for the province are at 63 billions. That's 50% of the province's budget.



Did you read any links I posted? How do you explain the long delay in queues for life threatening surgery? How do you explain that people died in waiting room without getting checked? As time pass, the quality of this service is getting worse, and the budget keep increasing at a rate faster than the inflation itself.

The issue isn't just limited to "non life-threatening problems", the quality of the service has been going down for the last 20 years in every category. While you limit yourself to very ideological point of view, what I see is a system that cost more and more, while giving us less and less the older it get. It needs a reform.


Why does everything have to be black or white? Just because I'm against our current system doesn't mean I'm for the opposite. Don't put word in my mouth please.


Do you seriously think there is no possible abuse in a public system because you have seen abuse in a private healthcare? Do you think that a public healthcare isn't at the mercy of pharmaceutical company either?
http://www.fraserinstitute.org/uploa...radox-2010.pdf

However, nobody really give a damn about stuff like that because no one is really aware of the real cost of healthcare. Everything is free, so who cares how much it cost!

How would you reform?