Free Health Care (Canada)

[Kaylia]

Lady, we all pay taxes, ok? Canucks are not special. France pays taxes and their healthcare fucking owns. What's your point? I pay taxes and it goes towards bailouts, bullets and tanks. I WISH I had the option of putting my tax dollars toward not going into medical bill debt. I get that its not free, but you're jockeying for sympathy from Americans who don't even get to put any of their taxes toward medical care. Our taxes get squandered on way dumber shit than yours, I promise you. This.

I know we all pay taxes, but we aren't paying anywhere near the same amount. Are you missing this on purpose?

Beside, your post imply that I believe that America is a role model when it's fucking terrible as well.


Lastly, on what basis do you say that "France system fucking own". It's the system that cost the most in the world when compared tot he GDP, and they are constantly trying to reduce it in size for a while now. I would be surprised if they can maintain this over the next 20 years without any change.

A greed-based health-care system is the worst kind of health-care system imaginable.

Take it from a guy in one.

Hey, here's a fun one. Ask us how our medical research into medicine is going! Especially against what's developed and what the costs are!

You forget the part where regulation have to be in place to limit the potential greed.

[Kaylia]

So, I'm getting from this thread, that this isn't about universal healthcare sucking, just that Quebec sucks.

ftfy

Don't you find it ironic that we are the left-most province in the country, and the most poorly managed at the same time.


http://www.carlywilkiesteven.com/ind...4397389939.jpg



I mean, how do you explain this paradox? We suck, yet opposed the conservative that you love to hate so much. We must be on something!

[Mazmaz]

Because provincial left is the same as federal left.

Here have some rage material.

[MaachaQ]

I've had a very positive experiance with UHC here in Korea, here's a good blog post giving details about how it works.

I've made several trips to the emergency room for my kids and never paid over $100 and never waited longer than 30 minutes to be seen. Once, my son spilled a hazardous solution into his eyes (he tipped over a grow rocks tank on his face >.>) and the emergency room gave him several eye rinses and medicated drops. We've also gone in for very high fevers a few times during hours when GPs weren't open. I've been to see dermatologists, eye doctors, dentists, psychologists, etc very cheaply compared to when I lived in the US and had private healthcare.

Perhaps the best example of the difference is from a couple years ago; my son cut his forehead on the stone stairs at his kindergarten. The GP nearby (literally 20 meters from the school) told the teachers that he should go to the emergency room, so the teachers drove us there (it's only a 15 minute walk, but we wanted to get there fast just in case). In the emergency room we were seen by a doctor within 10 minutes, my son had a head x-ray to check for skull damage/bleeding, and we were getting stitches done within 45 minutes. We paid a bit more since we asked for a plastic surgeon rather than a student doctor to do the stitches, since the cut was on the face and would leave a scar we wanted it to be done the best way possible. Total for the 1~ hour in the emergency room, less than $100, plus about $10 for antibiotics/pain meds. My kids and I travelled to the US for a visit a few days later, so we needed to go to a US hospital to have the stitches removed. It was a weekend in northern Wisconsin (we were visiting my grandmother), and we waited maybe 2 hours before we could see the single doctor in the place. It took all of 10 minutes for him to remove the stitches, but the bill for the visit was over $300. Luckily my old US health plan included a Health Savings Account and I still had money in it, so I was able to pay the bill without an out of pocket cost.

I honestly don't know how it's possible for the canadian system to be run so poorly. I think if more of the money was focussed on modernizing record systems both in the US and Canada, costs could be brought in line much much more quickly. Administration costs could be decimated (yes, it'd cost jobs, but those aren't good jobs anyway >.>) if record systems were modernized so that all of the paperwork shit was taken care of more quickly, correctly, and efficiently. By computerizing records you'd eliminate much of the error caused by hand-writing prescriptions and medical paperwork as well, and avoid things like overdoses or mixing drugs that have adverse effects.

tl;dr - UHC can be done right, and is being done right in many places. No system is perfect, but simple modernization could solve so many problems.

[Kaylia]

@Mazmaz
What? We have been voting left everywhere we can for the last 2 decades. Provincial and federal. You can't deny that it's ironic that province that is the most poorly managed has the most hardcore left-winger.

It's not like the right-wing sent secret agent to sabotage our hospital.

[Mazmaz]

What I meant was, just because your provincial leftists are fucktarded doesn't mean the federal left is. It's like me saying B.C. Liberals are fucktarded (who are actually conservative) therefore the federal Liberals are fucktarded.

[Rhyis.]

Ontario is just as "left" as Quebec is so I have no idea what you're getting at. Hell, my city Hamilton is quite literally NDP central.

[Kaylia]

I honestly don't know how it's possible for the canadian system to be run so poorly. I think if more of the money was focussed on medernizing record systems both in the US and Canada, costs could be brought in line much much more quickly. Administration costs could be decimated (yes, it'd cost jobs, but those aren't good jobs anyway >.>) if record systems were modernized so that all of the paperwork shit was taken care of more quickly, correctly, and efficiently. By computerizing records you'd eliminate much of the error caused by hand-writing prescriptions and medical paperwork as well, and avoid things like overdoses or mixing drugs that have adverse effects.

tl;dr - UHC can be done right, and is being done right in many places. No system is perfect, but simple modernization could solve so many problems.

It can be done right in a context of economic growth, but that's not the issue I brought when I made this thread. The real question is, is it possible to maintain this system forever in any economical and social context? Given that most UHC are relatively recent (oldest are like 60 years old), and seeing how some of them already went to shit, I think it's a fair question to ask. Would the format "user-payer" with governmental helps be better? Wouldnt private/public mix beat a purely private or public system?

And I agree we should get better service given the money we invest in the system, but poor management is an important risk you have to take for anything involving public money.

[Kaylia]

What I meant was, just because your provincial leftists are fucktarded doesn't mean the federal left is. It's like me saying B.C. Liberals are fucktarded (who are actually conservative) therefore the federal Liberals are fucktarded.

...way to dodge the point with inanities.

Left and right are ideologies. Our province has been embracing left winged ideologies for the last 20 years as demonstrated in every polls you can look at, and it went to hell.

People like you constantly act as if "left" was the answer to all problems, but our province demonstrated that it is not the case.

I'm glad that you believe "your" left is much smarter and will pull it off just fine where we failed, but I wouldn't count of that.

Ontario is just as "left" as Quebec is so I have no idea what you're getting at. Hell, my city Hamilton is quite literally NDP central.

Left vote: 25% NPD in ontario VS 43% NPD in quebec, 23% bloc (also left)
Right vote: 44.4% conservative VS 16.5% in québec

Liberal was 25% vs 15% if you want to place them to the left as well


I'm not exactly how you can say that ontario is just as "left" as Quebec.

[Mazmaz]

And my point was ideologies differ depending on who tries to govern by them. I don't know anything about the Quebec provincial government, but I'm not convinced that because one group who is labeled as left operated in an irresponsible manner, it means that a completely separate group on a whole different level of government will also follow suit.

[Kaylia]

I don't believe the government has to be blamed directly for most decisions, when they rarely go against public opinion to be reelected.

Also, most aspect of the society are managed by the average person who isn't affiliated to any governmental organizations (ie: hospital, school, most public organization). If the population is left-winged, it's going to show. The same is true if it is right-winged.


I don't mind if you say that everyone from Quebec is stupid and doesn't representative the "true left-wing", but this statement is most likely going to bite you in the ass sooner or later. The province is a great example of left-wing slippery slope, and studying what went wrong here would be a good start if you want to avoid doing the same mistake.

[Talint]

You forget the part where regulation have to be in place to limit the potential greed.

Regulations inhibit health care providers from making money. The less regulated the are, the more money they can make, so the better service they'll provide and the more jobs they'll employ.

Regulations mean death panels.

Don'tcha know.

[Mazmaz]

Just curious, what aspect of "left-wing" are you talking about? Cause the ban of face veils was pretty fascist of Quebec.

[Kohan]

Anyone against universal healthcare is dumb. Though I do hope that when we finally get it in the US,California gets its head out of its ass and actually builds some walk-in clinics. So weird they have none here. (at last in socal)

That's not true. There are walk-in and urgent care clinics all over Los Angeles. I didn't have health insurance for years, and I visited a few. Considering how populated Los Angeles County is, and how so many of its people do not have medical insurance, it's practically a requirement.

However, it isn't necessarily a bad thing that many more of the clinics require an appointment, and that's because of exactly what I've already mentioned: how populated Los Angeles County is. If every clinic were walk-in, you'd never get seen at many of them, as the amount of people waiting to be seen would easily exceed what the staff could handle in a day.

Of course, this is why LA's emergency wards are so packed, too. People don't go to a walk-in/urgent care, don't have an appointment at a clinic or practitioner's office, and then they head over to the ER instead. The only reason they're not kicked out—as they would be from an overloaded walk-in—is because the ER never closes.

The point of all that I've said is this: the options are there, but the population and so much desperation ensures that things remain time-consuming and complicated.

[Kaylia]

Just curious, what aspect of "left-wing" are you talking about? Cause the ban of face veils was pretty fascist of Quebec.

Do you realize that "fascism" is often considered a left-wing movement? Hell, Hitler's party was a "socialist party" to begin with, and that's pretty much the definition of fascism.

Not that any of this matter, it's pretty damn retarded to say that "racism" is a defining trait for left or right. No debates are possible the moment you declare one side as being systematically evil.


The separatist for the most part are close minded. To them, immigration represent a danger to lose our "culture" to the rest of the world, and that's what they are fighting against. Pretty retarded if you ask me, even if our culture is actually at risk. Not everything is worth saving, especially when it come at the cost of our future.

Why is most of our province close minded left-wing folk?


Parti québecois (its extension was the Bloc Quebecois)
Socialist party. Most of their staffs come directly from worker unions, and it show in their politics that always favored these same unions. But other than that, their politics are as close to NDP as it can get.

Quebec Solidaire (Solidarity Quebec)
New political party that is gaining in popularity. They are also socialist, but to a new extreme. They go as far as declaring that our government should buy every private industry, and they are against any kind of private industry. Their leader also declared not too long ago that we should take example on Hugo Chavez if it can give you an idea...

And the only "non separatist" choice
Quebec liberal party
Our "right-most" party and current goverment. It's considered a "center" party, but it's been leaning toward the left. There has been no cut over the last 8 years, taxes and sales taxes are constantly going up, ton of money is invested to create jobs, but unemployment keep increasing (blame the union for that one).

Regulations inhibit health care providers from making money. The less regulated the are, the more money they can make, so the better service they'll provide and the more jobs they'll employ.

Regulations mean death panels.

Don'tcha know.

Just to make sure, you know that I said to "add more regulations"?

[hey]

Gonna go ahead and say that in fact 99% of right wing politicians could be replaced with satan, and no one would even notice.

Spoiler: show

Not that the left is really any different

[Linliel]

Kaylia, you're a bloody idiot if you think that the fact that Quebecoise hospital waiting times herald the doom of universal health care all over the world.

Unlike Quebec, as you've shown, many other countries' governments actually give a shit about their national health care services. State governments (who run the hospitals) in Australia have been won and lost over healthcare issues. Perhaps you Quebecoise should just go and, I dunno, vote someone in who gives a shit about it?

Anyway, your question is stupid:

The real question is, is it possible to maintain this system forever in any economical and social context?

When you find someone who can predict the future "forever", let me know, ok? The more pressing question, it seems, for Quebecoise, is "what the fuck is going wrong and how can we fix it?" Whether that's a fix for your healthcare system or a reversion to private insurance is up to you, but don't you dare generalise from your shitty situation to the rest of the world without first finding out a shitload more about how it's run and public opinion and history of it.

[Kaylia]

When you find someone who can predict the future "forever", let me know, ok? The more pressing question, it seems, for Quebecoise, is "what the fuck is going wrong and how can we fix it?" Whether that's a fix for your healthcare system or a reversion to private insurance is up to you, but don't you dare generalise from your shitty situation to the rest of the world without first finding out a shitload more about how it's run and public opinion and history of it.

Who said we have to wait forever? The growth over the last 70 years has been relatively steady for most country, and it's something that we have taken for granted. The first crisis in the mid 80 threw a wrench at our economy, and it's around that period that our social program started degenerating. The recent crisis weakened the economy even further and pushed us toward new lows.

How long do we have to wait exactly? I've no idea, but the next 10-15 years should provide us with interesting data if the situation happen to degenerates in Europe. It would be the first real test for most government.

Kaylia, you're a bloody idiot if you think that the fact that Quebecoise hospital waiting times herald the doom of universal health care all over the world.

And what make you think that universal health-care is the end-all solution to every problems? That it is not a double-edged sword that could potentially backfire when mishandled? That we couldn't do better?

You can pretend that the "best" solution is dark on white, I don't believe it is the case. It's possible that certain country get away with it when citizen are responsible and well educated, but I don't trust our society (or any "western society) enough with that. People tend to slack when they reach the comfort zone, and that's exactly when shit will hit the fan.

[gt_killa]

$300 JUST to remove stitches? America is fucked up.

[Linliel]

Who said we have to wait forever?

Not waiting, you wanted to be able to maintain something "forever".

And what make you think that universal health-care is the end-all solution to every problems?

Don't put words in my mouth. I'm not claiming that at all.

All of your arguments are straw men or slippery slope arguments at best. You have an opinion, fine. You can make predictions, fine. But you're over-simplifying and ignoring major data points to cherry pick to support your own pet theory. A good debate doesn't work like that.