Free Health Care (Canada)

[Sera]

Lots of places have been making it work correctly for much longer than Canada. Maybe you guys just don't know what the fuck? Your experience isn't a fair assessment of UHS as a system though, because there are tons of other places making it work. Easy to blame the system, harder to take responsibility to change your country' shitty method of executing it though, so I can see why you'd take the easy way and be angry at UHS.

[Darus Grey]

waiting for darus to show up and put on a clinic

Really not sure what's expected of me from this statement!

[Acturus]

Here are five countries, labeled Capitalistic Democracies, circa 2008, who have been "making it work correctly", used by PBS Frontline as a comparison to the US system:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...rld/countries/

Here's the video, broken into parts: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...theworld/view/

No system is perfect, all systems require rapid response to change, which no large entity, public or private, can manage. As a result, there's no utopia of healthcare, despite what's said about "universal" systems of care out there.

And the only way a perfect system will ever be created is if the entire population of that system buys in and changes behavior to accomodate healthier living. But the inherent problem with that is that preventative medicine isn't nearly as profitable as what we do today.

I've heard that France is similar to Germany in regards to underpaid staff and facilities, as mentioned in the video. Can anyone confirm that?

[Kurokikaze]

$300 JUST to remove stitches? America is fucked up.

Yeah man. Why do you think a lot of people don't go to the hospital? I remember having a seizure at Otacon (age 19) for unknown reasons and waking up in the hospital. They had done an EEG, MRI, blah blah blah. A few months later I get hit with a bill for 2k and I'm sitting there wondering "Um... so whose paying this shit? Also wait... I have to pay for services I was unable to refuse?! Next time this shit happens just leave me on the ground."

[Sera]

Here are five countries, labeled Capitalistic Democracies, circa 2008, who have been "making it work correctly", used by PBS Frontline as a comparison to the US system:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...rld/countries/

Here's the video, broken into parts: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...theworld/view/

No system is perfect, all systems require rapid response to change, which no large entity, public or private, can manage. As a result, there's no utopia of healthcare, despite what's said about "universal" systems of care out there.

And the only way a perfect system will ever be created is if the entire population of that system buys in and changes behavior to accomodate healthier living. But the inherent problem with that is that preventative medicine isn't nearly as profitable as what we do today.

I've heard that France is similar to Germany in regards to underpaid staff and facilities, as mentioned in the video. Can anyone confirm that?

In France things like childcare and elder care are included in being covered, and they also will help pay for maid service if both parents work.

[Uzor]

Here are five countries, labeled Capitalistic Democracies, circa 2008, who have been "making it work correctly", used by PBS Frontline as a comparison to the US system:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...rld/countries/

Here's the video, broken into parts: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...theworld/view/

No system is perfect, all systems require rapid response to change, which no large entity, public or private, can manage. As a result, there's no utopia of healthcare, despite what's said about "universal" systems of care out there.

And the only way a perfect system will ever be created is if the entire population of that system buys in and changes behavior to accomodate healthier living. But the inherent problem with that is that preventative medicine isn't nearly as profitable as what we do today.

I've heard that France is similar to Germany in regards to underpaid staff and facilities, as mentioned in the video. Can anyone confirm that?

No disrespect to Brittish people, but I wouldn't let Brittish doctors examine me even if it meant dying. Their health care is horrible. Brittish people can't get ANYTHING right.

Like you said; there's no perfect universal health care system. I would like to chip in, though, that in Sweden, we've done a lot of pre-emptive measures to prevent sickness, death and injury in the first place. Some of it includes higher tax on unhealthy living, and some of it involves teaching the population of various dangers. In Sweden, 85% of the population are non-smokers, 1 liter of vodka costs $40 (as well as only being able to purchase it at certain stores), and antibiotics can not be bought over-the-counter to prevent superbacteria. Additionally; you're encouraged to stay at home if you feel sick to prevent others from getting sick, too. There's also been talkign about increasing tax on unhealthy food, while lowering the tax on healthy food, to encourage a healthier diet.

[Kurokikaze]

Like you said; there's no perfect universal health care system. I would like to chip in, though, that in Sweden, we've done a lot of pre-emptive measures to prevent sickness, death and injury in the first place. Some of it includes higher tax on unhealthy living, and some of it involves teaching the population of various dangers. In Sweden, 85% of the population are non-smokers, 1 liter of vodka costs $40 (as well as only being able to purchase it at certain stores), and antibiotics can not be bought over-the-counter to prevent superbacteria. Additionally; you're encouraged to stay at home if you feel sick to prevent others from getting sick, too. There's also been talkign about increasing tax on unhealthy food, while lowering the tax on healthy food, to encourage a healthier diet.

Wouldn't that be nice... I still can't believe you can get a cheeseburger and fries for almost half the price of a salad.

[Myrrh_Quetz]

Every system has it's flaws. I've spent well over 3 years of my life(added up over my life time, of course) in Hospitals. That's means ERs, ORs, Different wards, and I've met more doctors than I can remember.

Everything is circumstantial. As someone who has grown up with breathing Conditions I've had to wait between 10 minutes and 7 hours just to get into the ER. The Triage weighs many different things for people when they go into the ER. Sometimes it fails because no one can ever predict how a patient will....I guess decline would be the word I'd use while they waited.

I remember when I was about 10 years old, I had a stomach pains for a week straight. After day two of Stomach pains I went to the ER. We ended up waiting so long(I think we waited 12 hours) that after we got admitted into the ER, the doctor said I was Okay and sent me home, 4 days later, I had to have my appendix removed.

And now, I can go in with a cold, get my SATs read, and be inside the ER within minutes(I know this because I had a cold a few days ago and did just that). But that's because of my transplant and they do all they can to make sure nothing goes wrong.

But a different person with the same problem who shows similar symptoms won't go in as quickly because to them it's not high risk.

And I've only read one page of this thread so far. So I'll catch up and maybe edit this post to seem less retarded.

[Uzor]

Saw a comment about France spending more on Health Care as a percentage of GDP than others - summarily false. While they outspend other nations by about 2-3% (around 10-11% of their GDP goes to health care while other nations average around 8%) the U.S. spends 17.6% of their GDP - which by the way is substantially larger than that of France, amounting to hundreds of billions if not trillions of dollars - for a non-universal system.

The problem is that comparing it to GDP is flawed. Why? Because USA's health care is grossly overpriced. It doesn't cost $300 for a 10 min visit for the doctor to remove stitches. The reason USA spend such a high % of their GDP on health care is just that - it's overpriced and run as a for-profit organization. In France, Sweden, Switzerland etc. it's run as a non-profit organization. Therefor, they don't have to overprice everything. If they give a patient an Aspirin, they pay however much it cost to buy it directly from the company that produce it; they don't pay $30 for it. This leads to a lower overall cost - even if more things are done. If they get an X-ray, the hospital pays for the doctor's time, electricity and whatever other managing costs there is, not $20,000.

If you live outside of Europe and visit a Swedish hospital, you have to pay a grand total of between $400 and $600. This includes X-ray, blood tests, examination by a doctor, whatever other tests they need to run, and the treatment.

Also;

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._%28alt%29.png

[Kaylia]

Not waiting, you wanted to be able to maintain something "forever".

"Forever" was obviously not meant to be taken literally. What matter is to find a system that is as resistant as it can be to economical instability and can be maintained longer than other alternative.

Universal healthcare isn't the only way to make sure that everyone get access to actual healthcare, and your argument that "others have done it right" doesn't imply that they are actually "doing it right", just "better than us".

Don't put words in my mouth. I'm not claiming that at all.

All of your arguments are straw men or slippery slope arguments at best. You have an opinion, fine. You can make predictions, fine. But you're over-simplifying and ignoring major data points to cherry pick to support your own pet theory. A good debate doesn't work like that.

You're the one who is putting word in my mouth. I warn you of the potential danger of a universal healthcare system when misused, I ask for a debate to see if there isn't a more viable alternative and you jump to my throat.

Not once did I say that it can't be maintained in optimal condition, but I do have the right to wonder what these "optimal condition" implies, and or feasible they are.

[Maguspk]

What is the benefit of universal health care? If someone is sick and cannot afford treatment is that not more a problem with their financial situation and/or the expense associated with their situation? Paying for the education of the public is one thing, we can directly benefit from that, but how does one directly benefit from covering all of their health care costs? Specifically with regard to the economy, I guess one could argue it results in a healthier workforce but is the health of the working class really that big of a concern? Highly specialized individuals who are arguably more difficult to replace are already deemed more valuable by having full coverage provided by their employers in most cases.

Thinking about it a bit more, there is the angle that a government regulated system could prevent abuse and overpricing in general. This makes more sense and seems like the more important issue.

[Uzor]

Good health shouldn't be a class issue, it should be a basic human right. Everyone should have the right to be as healthy as possible. anyone, for any reason, can get sick. A lot of sick people WANT to work, but can't because they're sick.

People aren't always in a bad financial situation because they're lazy. And if they get sick on top of that, without any chance to get healthy because they can't afford the health care, they don't ever get a chance to become a productive member of society. Without universal health care, poor people can only get more poor, without any chance to contribute to society, and will eventually become a larger drain on society through other welfare benefits, if such options exist. There's also the risk of their children turning to a criminal life style to support themselves, if their parents are sick and can't support the family.

[Kuya]

Do you realize that "fascism" is often considered a left-wing movement? Hell, Hitler's party was a "socialist party" to begin with, and that's pretty much the definition of fascism.

Not that any of this matter, it's pretty damn retarded to say that "racism" is a defining trait for left or right. No debates are possible the moment you declare one side as being systematically evil.


The separatist for the most part are close minded. To them, immigration represent a danger to lose our "culture" to the rest of the world, and that's what they are fighting against. Pretty retarded if you ask me, even if our culture is actually at risk. Not everything is worth saving, especially when it come at the cost of our future.

Why is most of our province close minded left-wing folk?


Parti québecois (its extension was the Bloc Quebecois)
Socialist party. Most of their staffs come directly from worker unions, and it show in their politics that always favored these same unions. But other than that, their politics are as close to NDP as it can get.

Quebec Solidaire (Solidarity Quebec)
New political party that is gaining in popularity. They are also socialist, but to a new extreme. They go as far as declaring that our government should buy every private industry, and they are against any kind of private industry. Their leader also declared not too long ago that we should take example on Hugo Chavez if it can give you an idea...

And the only "non separatist" choice
Quebec liberal party
Our "right-most" party and current goverment. It's considered a "center" party, but it's been leaning toward the left. There has been no cut over the last 8 years, taxes and sales taxes are constantly going up, ton of money is invested to create jobs, but unemployment keep increasing (blame the union for that one).








Just to make sure, you know that I said to "add more regulations"?

Are you aware that fascism is a specific political ideology?

[guartz]

Like most people, i don't consciously engage in ethics when i make decisions. Like most people, i can be a utilitarian at one moment, and a deontologist the next. It depends on what i feel is right, which is often implicit. That may be contradictory, but i could not care any less.

universal health care = utilitarian decision.

lol

wait u serious?

[Kuya]

universal health care = utilitarian decision.

lol

wait u serious?

The point of my post was: I don't give a fuck.

[Kaylia]

Are you aware that fascism is a specific political ideology?

Are you aware that Mazmaz used fascism to object the fact that we are a "left-wing" province, when fascism itself is sitting in a pretty weird spot on the left/right spectrum.

Do you think it's fair play to imply that fascism is an integral part of the right?

[Kuya]

Are you aware that Mazmaz used fascism to object the fact that we are a "left-wing" province, when fascism itself is sitting in a pretty weird spot on the left/right spectrum.

Do you think it's fair play to imply that fascism is an integral part of the right?

I have no idea what the politics in Quebec are like. What i know is that the context in which mazmaz used fascism was not incorrect in the sense that xenophobia is bread and butter of fascist political ideology. I don't know what mazmaz intended, but it seemed like he was questioning how left-wing Quebec really is.

edit: Historically, fascist political movements have tended to ally with conservative institutions, and nationalist political ideology tends to be anathema to left-wing politics. Though i wouldn't call fascism a form of conservatism, fascism generally leans to the right in the sense that it's generally not a emancipatory movement and it places great importance on authoritarianism.

However, pointing out that politics in Quebec might sometimes be xenophobic probably isn't enough to prove its politics are right-wing or something like that, since islamophobia is currently a popular thing in parts of Europe that are far more left-wing than the US.

[Chips]

My experience with Canadian emergency rooms (in the Niagara area, so the Welland General Hospital/Port Colborne General Hospital/St. Catharines Hospital/Niagara Falls Hospital - these are all in Ontario):

-Got hit in the head with a rock when I was 12, cut me and I needed stitches (6). Waited zero minutes at the Port Hosp.

-Got hit in the head playing hockey, was dizzy. I was 14. Waited half an hour to get diagnosed with a concussion. Port Hosp.

-Got stung by a bee in the face, probably around the same age playing golf. Face swelled up huge, looked awful, waited 0 minutes. Welland Hosp.

-Was feeling nauseous for a couple days, thought I had the flu. Saw my fam doc (I was 16). Sent me to get a scan of my appendix, which I waited maybe 10 minutes for. Found out 20 minutes later my appendix popped. Had surgery literally an hour afterwards. Welland Hosp.

-Various times Ive gone due to sport injuries (get my cauliflower ear drained, shoulder injury) for scans. Took no more than an hour. Port Hosp.

-Had MRI done on my hip flexors. Appointment date took 2 weeks.

-Had bad hives, would have waited four hours at the London hosp, but said fuck that. My only bad experience with emergency rooms, and it was a four hour wait.

Over my lifetime, I've never had one of these horrendous wait times that I'm hearing about. It's not like this for just me, but for my family and friends as well. The worst I've ever heard was my friend broke his arm snowboarding, went to the welland hospital for eight hours to get a cast moulded. That's the only time I've heard of something that outrageous.

[Belragga]

Three walk in clinics within a 30 minute walk of my house and the only time I've waited over an hour was because some kid with a broken collar bone was going into shock while he waited for an ambulance. I haven't been to the emergency room in close to a decade but the only real horror stories I've heard first hand is my brother having to wait 3 hours with a broken jaw, but that was on Canada Day. The problem I hear about the most in BC is the lack of hospital beds due to aging hospitals and populaton growth.

[Kaylia]

edit: Historically, fascist political movements have tended to ally with conservative institutions, and nationalist political ideology tends to be anathema to left-wing politics. Though i wouldn't call fascism a form of conservatism, fascism generally leans to the right in the sense that it's generally not a emancipatory movement and it places great importance on authoritarianism.

However, pointing out that politics in Quebec might sometimes be xenophobic probably isn't enough to prove its politics are right-wing or something like that, since islamophobia is currently a popular thing in parts of Europe that are far more left-wing than the US.

I didn't disagree with his statement that we are xenophobe (and by "we", I mean a significant portion of the population that doesn't include me). Like you said, our situation is far from being unique when its compared to the rest of Europe, and it's quite possibly better since we have no actual violence or tension, but it's not something to be proud of either way. However, none of this change the fact that our ideology lean toward the left even more than the rest of the Canada.

One example I can give you is our support toward the most common "left" topic
http://www.thestar.com/living/article/679824
"There is compelling evidence that Canadians across all demographics would prefer a public over a for-profit health-care system," Nik Nanos of Nanos Research said of the poll, commissioned by the Canadian Healthcare Coalition. Support was strongest in Quebec, at 87.6 per cent and lowest in Ontario at 84.1 per cent. "

Last time I checked, the result were the same for welfare, healthcare, unions, public management, but you will have to take my word on it since I can't find the damn study anymore. That's why I say we are the "left-most" province.

I have no idea what the politics in Quebec are like. What i know is that the context in which mazmaz used fascism was not incorrect in the sense that xenophobia is bread and butter of fascist political ideology. I don't know what mazmaz intended, but it seemed like he was questioning how left-wing Quebec really is.

This is exactly what he was questioning, but I disagree with his definition of "fascist" as a right-wing idea when it can easily be used in conjunction with left-wing ideologies.

At the risk of repeating myself, this debate fall apart the moment we start involving close-minded individual in it (or any kind of "extreme"). It's easy to bundle the undefendable with the opposite side, but what truly matter are the moderated opinion that search for the optimal path. It's true that historically, the unwilingness to emancipate is considerated a "right" trait, but it's a poor way to classify people now, especially when you want to look at multiples topics at the same time.


Also, I don't think "fascism" is relevant to the topic since we are talking about the the internal management of the state.