Free Health Care (Canada)

[archibaldcrane]

All in all, this wonderful experience cost me $2,200. For something that wasn't an emergency as much as it was urgent care, that I knew what I was having, and that there was nothing I could do about it.

Sounds exactly like my $7700 ER bill for 3 bags of saline and 2 hours in a hospital bed when I had food poisoning. I knew exactly what I needed, tried to get it from urgent care, they couldn't, so had to go to the ER.

[Psion]

Sounds exactly like my $7700 ER bill for 3 bags of saline and 2 hours in a hospital bed when I had food poisoning. I knew exactly what I needed, tried to get it from urgent care, they couldn't, so had to go to the ER.

well, then that would mean for our hypothetical perfect healthcare to work, for situations where doesn't require ER but you are unable to get treatment at urgent care for some reason (they don't have the facilities or there's too many people or w/e), then you could get a waiver slip or something to give to the ER while they treat you, letting them know that you tried to go to the proper place but were unable to get treatment there, cancelling the improper use fee.

[Myrrh_Quetz]

Man, I'm honestly surprised at how everyone has paid these crazy medical bills. Glad to be Canadian!

[Kaylia]

More than anything, I'm personally rather impressed that so many people are bothering to argue with BG's pchan of politics, Kaylia.

BG: Let's buy this giant cake, it looks great
Kaylia: I love cake, but is it a good idea to spend our money on a cake? It could be spent better elsewhere, like vegetable. We need to make sure that's what we really need.
BG: CAKE. CAKE. CAKE.
BG: DO YOU WANT US TO STARVE TO DEATH?



You need a system that prevent greed just as much as it prevents abuse. You need a system that encourage responsability, and punish the opposite. Not once did I oppose the idea that everyone deserve a reasonable access to healthcare. Not once did I propose a private system similar to the USA. People are so stuck on the idea of a UHC should be entirely handled by the state with no individual responsability that they refuse to see any kind of deviation that could potentially increase its efficiency.


But that's fine, I'm just going to sit here and watch both our country self-destruct while left and right fight over trivial matters for the volatile public opinion instead of attempting a real debate over any meaningful topics.

[Greatguardian]

Free market forces won't be doing anything to improve health care. The name of the game is profit, which you get these days chiefly by cutting costs (read: corners) and overworking/underpaying your staff. Sounds like a lot of the same problems the system has right now, n'est-ce pas?

If you want to improve the system, that's cool. But giving any for-profit entity control over any part of the system is just asking for trouble. Greed is just the name of the game. It's not something that can only be attributed to "bad big business", greed is quite literally synonymous with business in general. You make as much money as you can while spending as little as you can. It's not just "how it's done", it's the business's job - their duty to their stockholders - to rake in as much of a profit as possible through whatever means are available to them; be it via breaking the laws or lobbying to have the laws changed, though typically both at the same time.

If you want to see what happens when the free market is allowed to completely rape an industry, just take a gander down South. What Canada needs most are elected officials who unilaterally give a fuck about seeing the system succeed, on all levels both federal and provincial, and who can bring ideas to the table about how to streamline hospital administration and improve the system. I know fuck-all about Canadian politics, but if it's anything like the US then it makes absolutely no difference who's in power or how left/right blue/red a state/province is, as the parties have spent so long trying to fuck each other over that any measure implemented by one is immediately hamstrung by the other.

[Tyche]

BG: Let's buy this giant cake, it looks great
Kaylia: I love cake, but is it a good idea to spend our money on a cake? It could be spent better elsewhere, like vegetable. We need to make sure that's what we really need.
BG: CAKE. CAKE. CAKE.
BG: DO YOU WANT US TO STARVE TO DEATH?



You need a system that prevent greed just as much as it prevents abuse. You need a system that encourage responsability, and punish the opposite. Not once did I oppose the idea that everyone deserve a reasonable access to healthcare. Not once did I propose a private system similar to the USA. People are so stuck on the idea of a UHC should be entirely handled by the state with no individual responsability that they refuse to see any kind of deviation that could potentially increase its efficiency.


But that's fine, I'm just going to sit here and watch both our country self-destruct while left and right fight over trivial matters for the volatile public opinion instead of attempting a real debate over any meaningful topics.

Kalia: "you know, this is a great cupcake but I think we could spend the $5 better elsewhere, it's just not worth it"

Meanwhile, in the USA: "man, I'm starving and I just had to spend $300 on this stupid fucking bag of rice"

I hope you understand why we're appalled.

[Kaylia]

Free market forces won't be doing anything to improve health care. The name of the game is profit, which you get these days chiefly by cutting costs (read: corners) and overworking/underpaying your staff. Sounds like a lot of the same problems the system has right now, n'est-ce pas?

The few private clinics in Canada already offer a "better service" (at a price of course) to both customers and employees because they are managed much more efficiently. It's our laws that prevent them from offering additional services that could be used to take away some stress from our public system.

It's been shown (I posted a study earlier in this thread) that people who have money are willing to use a parallel private system to skip the long waiting queue (and poor service). It's the rest of the population that is against the idea, even if they would benefit indirectly from this.

I don't understand why you say that a parallel private system couldn't work. They simply have to offer something people are willing to pay for. In that sense, they would have to compete against public healthcare and make a better offer.

If you want to see what happens when the free market is allowed to completely rape an industry, just take a gander down South. What Canada needs most are elected officials who unilaterally give a fuck about seeing the system succeed, on all levels both federal and provincial, and who can bring ideas to the table about how to streamline hospital administration and improve the system. I know fuck-all about Canadian politics, but if it's anything like the US then it makes absolutely no difference who's in power or how left/right blue/red a state/province is, as the parties have spent so long trying to fuck each other over that any measure implemented by one is immediately hamstrung by the other.

That's what I've been saying, but good luck making it happen. The population is poorly educated, everyone is greedy, the media are targeting the lowest denominator and politicians aren't much better..that's why our society isn't doing as well as it should.

I hope you understand why we're appalled.

I do, and we have every reasons to be appalled when the system is getting rapped on both end of the spectrum. However, it shouldn't stop us from taking a more objective look at the issue and see flaws when there is flaws. The situation could be improved in USA for sure, but it could also be improved over here.


Anyway, public system or not, the pharmaceutical industry is going to feast on your money. It's a problem that need to be dealt with first regardless of the situation.

[Mazmaz]

@Kaylia, off the top of my head, 3 reasons why I would imagine Canadians are uncomfortable with some amount of privatization:

1. It's not fair to be able to pay and skip the line
2. They don't trust any party that would introduce some privatization because they could use that as stepping stone towards full privatization (what government wouldn't want one of the biggest costs to the government to be alleviated)
3. All the good doctors will go work at private clinics/hospitals where they'll be paid more


Also, the fascism thing:
http://montanafesto.files.wordpress....ectrum_011.jpg

I don't care what you wanna call it, I was pointing to that point on the political spectrum where it says "fascism"

[Kaylia]

Nietzsche was an anarchist, and fascists took his idea. Your chart must be wrong since it loop around.
http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/212...ticalspect.jpg



It's stupid to use 2 dimensional charts to describe something complex, left/right debate is stupid, and you're stupid for using stupid chart that turn any debates into a RED vs BLUE war, when the ideas behind these labels deserve to be debated.

1. It's not fair to be able to pay and skip the line
2. They don't trust any party that would introduce some privatization because they could use that as stepping stone towards full privatization (what government wouldn't want one of the biggest costs to the government to be alleviated)
3. All the good doctors will go work at private clinics/hospitals where they'll be paid more

#1 If I can't have it, nobody can.
That's a very mature outlook...

#2 Nazi: I don't want Monarchism [*insert slippery slope*] because it could lead to communism.

I know we often hear "open the door to" in politics, but decisions are still voted, and people mentality don't change so fast. The goverments may be incompetant in general, but I don't see it as an organization that try to steal us. In other word, changing something doesn't commit you to the other extreme.

#3 All the "good" doctor left the province already.
Also, nothing stop us from increasing the place in medicine school if this is an actual issue.

[Mazmaz]

>starts the debate by saying how shitty his left wing provincial government is and how it would be so much better if it was right wing
>says we shouldn't be having red vs blue debates that he started

What the fuck is this I don't even..
Kuya made it pretty clear what I meant by it, I thought I would use a visual aid since you didn't get what he said.

You didn't really address any of those points properly, especially #3. How do you not see that would literally make the public health care worse for not-rich people while at the same time making it better for rich people?

Lastly, what the fuck happened to your English all of the sudden.

[Kaylia]

>starts the debate by saying how shitty his left wing provincial government is and how it would be so much better if it was right wing
>says we shouldn't be having red vs blue debates that he started

You're the one who constantly label me as "right" (in fact, you opened the argument by calling me Canadian republican). I consider myself in the center if anything, but I prefer to stay as far away from these labels as I can. Nothing good ever come out of this.

What the fuck is this I don't even..
Kuya made it pretty clear what I meant by it, I thought I would use a visual aid since you didn't get what he said.

When a straight line loop around, it mean you missed a dimension at least. How can you talk about left-right when your axis make no fucking sense. It has slavery on both side of the chart.

Like I told you many time, placing these different ideologies on an arbitrary "left-right" axis is retarded. It's just an excuse for people to use slippery slope arguments (ie: associate it with the closest/extremist) and feel better about their own ideas. It also means very little since you're looking at a very specific point (ie: personal freedom) when these philosophies include much more than this.

You didn't really address any of those points properly, especially #3. How do you not see that would literally make the public health care worse for not-rich people while at the same time making it better for rich people?

P-a-r-a-l-l-e-l

They can uses our public system for free.
They can pay for enhanced services not supported by our public system.

Why would someone pay? Because they have the money, and waiting a year for a life threatening surgery isn't fun?

"I didn't address any of those point properly". Could you please tell me why?

Lastly, what the fuck happened to your English all of the sudden.

I'm sorry?

[Kaylia]

Conservatism (Latin: conservare, "to preserve")[1] is a political and social philosophy that promotes the maintenance of traditional institutions and supports at the most, minimal and gradual change in society.

The strong opposition
to “two-tiered” health is in tension with Canadians’ belief that individuals should be able
to use their money as they see fit to protect their own health.

See how fucking retarded labels are. Wanting to preserve free health care should by definition be associated to conservatism (in Canada).


Of course, these labels usually refer to economic (or historical) position, but they are so broad and vague they means very little on their own, especially when used on a stupid left-right chart.

[solanis]

@Kaylia, off the top of my head, 3 reasons why I would imagine Canadians are uncomfortable with some amount of privatization:

1. It's not fair to be able to pay and skip the line
2. They don't trust any party that would introduce some privatization because they could use that as stepping stone towards full privatization (what government wouldn't want one of the biggest costs to the government to be alleviated)
3. All the good doctors will go work at private clinics/hospitals where they'll be paid more

these are reasons why poor people who don't pay into the system would get huffy. if someone can pay, they should most definitely be able to skip the line. no shit that doctors want to be paid after all their hard work. my GP doesn't even take insurance because it's not worth the headache to her. you pay up front out of pocket or you go somewhere else. she's also the best at what she does in the city, I doubt it's a coincidence.

you know, economics says that deregulation for health care professionals is the best way to drive down costs. go figure.

[Darus Grey]

Plenty of countries that have mixed private/public systems that work great.

Everyone has a minimum of baseline coverage guaranteed, and if you're baller, you can "skip the line" and go to private hospitals for instant service at 10x the cost. Switzerland is a good example of this.

[Sera]

Kalia: "you know, this is a great cupcake but I think we could spend the $5 better elsewhere, it's just not worth it"

Meanwhile, in the USA: "man, I'm starving and I just had to spend $300 on this stupid fucking bag of rice"

I hope you understand why we're appalled.

THIS. seriously, shut the fuck UP

[Kaylia]

THIS. seriously, shut the fuck UP

First of all, no.


Secondly, just because you have a shitty system mean doesn't mean I should shut up about our shitty system. So...what's about no?

Plenty of countries that have mixed private/public systems that work great.

Everyone has a minimum of baseline coverage guaranteed, and if you're baller, you can "skip the line" and go to private hospitals for instant service at 10x the cost. Switzerland is a good example of this.

Sadly, the concept generates so much anger it's not going to happen anytime soon. It's not the end-all solution, but every little bit could help.

[Sera]

First of all, no.
Secondly, just because you have a shitty system mean doesn't mean I should shut up about our shitty system. So...what's about no?

You really are a joke. You're the type that would go to africa and talk to starving children about how the chinese takeout place near your house has egg rolls that are just WAY TOO GREASY, YOU KNOW? DON'T YOU HATE THAT GUYS?

No, they don't hate it. And you sound ridiculous.

[Kaylia]

You really are a joke. You're the type that would go to africa and talk to starving children about how the chinese takeout place near your house has egg rolls that are just WAY TOO GREASY, YOU KNOW? DON'T YOU HATE THAT GUYS?

No, they don't hate it. And you sound ridiculous.

Read the thread title.

[Kaylia]

And did you just compare yourself to a starving african children?

[Sera]

I'm saying you have no fucking ability to see why we don't fucking care how long you had to wait for whathefuckever, because we're too busy waiting the same amounts for shit we have to pay a bajillion dollars for. No one here feels sorry for you or gives a shit.

You're ridiculously obtuse.