KONY 2012 - Arrest kidnapper and warlord Joseph Kony

[Demosthenes11]

Because the conflicts of Africa are intractable and the idea being sold that we can simply just roll up, kill (er jail) Kony and pat ourselves on the back is completely lacking scope and naive. If we want to talk about solutions to the problem fine but both sides in this ongoing Kony 2012 debate have been doing nothing but bickering over the organization that created the video and taking cheap shots at eachother through tweets, memes and facebook posts all while failing to deliver on any substance on solving the actual problem.

With Kony gone, then what?
Are we gonna referee Uganda to make sure the killing is 'fair' and children are left out of those conflicts?
What of our own American problems? Should we prioritize foreign nations over ourselves given the state of the union?
What of the corrupt Ugandan government?
What about the other regional conflicts across Africa? Shall we jump in those countries too?
What about places like Syria? Children dying every day. Should we interfere there too?

Paralysis. Inaction. Divisiveness. The current American way.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I feel for the people in Uganda but the people who live there are the ones who are going to have to rise up (and overthrow) their oppressors - the government and Kony's cronies alike - if anything is to change. We tried forcing our ways in Afghanistan and it failed so the idea that we should take Kony out simply to feel better about ourselves when we wake up in the morning seems like a good intention that could potentially have disastrous consequences. There are just many questions left unanswered and a popular outcry to do something doesn't change that fact.

If people feel so compelled by this issue then feel free donate to organizations (in Africa and abroad), enrich one's own knowledge on the issue, present logical arguments for or against intervention or support continuing education for the Ugandan people.

This conflict is so much more than the 'unite against one bad person' idea being thrown around the internet.

well put

[Indeed]

Because the conflicts of Africa are intractable and the idea being sold that we can simply just roll up, kill (er jail) Kony and pat ourselves on the back is completely lacking scope and naive.

This times a million.

[Elvis]

With Kony gone, then what?
Are we gonna referee Uganda to make sure the killing is 'fair' and children are left out of those conflicts?
What of our own American problems? Should we prioritize foreign nations over ourselves given the state of the union?
What of the corrupt Ugandan government?
What about the other regional conflicts across Africa? Shall we jump in those countries too?
What about places like Syria? Children dying every day. Should we interfere there too?

@Invisible Children

I have continually said that the positive thing about this project is that it has made a lot of people aware of who Kony is. The style of the campaign indicates the kind of audience it is aimed at and the kind of audience it is aimed at is needed (in the view of the organizers) to make an immediate change.

They wanted groundswell support and they chose a medium and, almost by definition, a demographic that was receptive to said medium.

So you can say they are misguided in how they want to combat the issue.

I think of this entire project as I think of the Ron Paul campaign. He isn't going to win, but his campaign has value in and of itself. He introduces ideas into the conversation that no other candidate is going to express. I can't think of any other candidate that would have defended made rational comments about Palestinian identity (as in, all identities are 'made up', and since Palestinian identity is a nationalism, it is no more or less 'fabricated' than Israeli identity since it too is a nationalism).

As to the 'litany' of things you wrote - it's just filibuster. I don't know what we could do to counteract the atrocities there. Then again, that question shouldn't even be applied to me. I'm not saying that the Invisible Children project's goals are acceptable.

Under the condition that there is nothing shady going on w/ the funding and the government hasn't co-opted the movement - I think it's simply misguided idealism. But that doesn't mean that it can't have positive side-effects.

As I keep saying, it brings this issue into the light. And people can disagree w/ the tactics but maybe now that they know about Kony, they will choose to fund Amnesty International or other more suitable alternatives (depends on their own beliefs though).


You then ask, 'What of our own American problems?'

'Our' problems should be defined as our domestic problems. We did not have to go to war with Iraq. We do not have to support in such a one-sided manner, the Israelis - against international law and norms (we are always vetoing UN resolutions in Israel's favor in spite of our State Dept. reports acknowledging that the IDF acted as 'death squads' during the First Intifada).

And it is simply redundant to rehash the inhumane things this country did in previous decades when the threat then was the spread of Marxism.

US policy makers make these conflicts our problems when they say 'no superpower can afford to leave a region of interest unattended'. That we should 'support an ideological counter' to movements that have become (in the view of the policy makers) 'anti-American'.

What this meant was economic independence. An independence that would potentially spread throughout the continent and we couldn't have that - so we of course linked it w/ the Soviet Union.

We should focus first and foremost on our own problems and conflicts that we are responsible for.

You don't want us to get involved in Africa - but you stress the importance of stopping the alleged Iranian nuclear program because A) their rhetoric against Israel, B) their support for anti-American terrorist proxies and C) the chance that if they made a nuke, it might slip into the hands of Islamic fundamentalist terrorists (maybe there were more reasons).

You also characterized opposition in the region to American hegemonic goals as being chiefly motivated by irrational religious fanaticism.

A) The rhetoric goes both ways. This is an election year, and both of these countries are on opposite ends of the geopolitical spectrum. It is not a religious conflict. It is a conflict over influence in the region.

The region does not belong to us, but it won't stop us from trying to control it - by propping up favorable regimes (as we have done all over the world where our interests lie), whether it be a 'Western' style democracy like Israel or a dictatorship like Mubarek's Egypt.

I won't even go into B or C, because I addressed these issues in the Iran thread and you still haven't responded. Suffice it to say, Iran does not have a monopoly on supporting terrorist proxies or atrocities and neither of these components are ancient history I'm drudging up.

Paralysis. Inaction. Divisiveness. The current American way.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I feel for the people in Uganda but the people who live there are the ones who are going to have to rise up (and overthrow) their oppressors - the government and Kony's cronies alike - if anything is to change. We tried forcing our ways in Afghanistan and it failed so the idea that we should take Kony out simply to feel better about ourselves when we wake up in the morning seems like a good intention that could potentially have disastrous consequences. There are just many questions left unanswered and a popular outcry to do something doesn't change that fact.

We have supported coups in the past. There was no shortage of Latin American countries we didn't help topple. We also assisted in the toppling of the first democratically elected government of the Congo.

If people feel so compelled by this issue then feel free donate to organizations, enrich one's own knowledge on the issue, present logical arguments for or against intervention or support continuing education for the Ugandan people. This conflict is so much more than the 'unite against one bad person' idea being thrown around the internet.

Sure. And I agree w/ all that. And that is what I keep saying.

EDIT:

Oh, and I forgot to add that we have done something about Syria. Sanctions. Isn't that common knowledge?

The US House Foreign Affairs Committee has unanimously approved bipartisan legislation to impose further sanctions on Syria that would prohibit investments of more than $5 million in the Syrian energy sector and the provision of refined products worth more than $1 million in a single transaction or $2 million over a 12-month period.

The approval of the Syria Freedom Support Act, proposed in June 2011, marks the first anniversary of the Arab Spring anti-government uprising in the eastern Mediterranean state, which has been governed by the authoritarian regime of President Bashar al-Assad and his late father Hafez for more than three decades. It tightens existing US sanctions on Syria in response to the regime's brutal repression of anti-government demonstrations and its continuing bombardment of civilians in retaliation for the widespread protests.

We didn't sanction Egypt during the Egyptian revolution.

[Demosthenes11]

I'm learning why people are so frustrated to argue with you elvis. You really gotta learn to make your points a little more succinct and focused.

I read the beginning and then skipped to the end. It went from the name KONY getting out to sanctions on egypt/syria...

[Siatdiat]

Yeah people want newsbites of information.

[Demosthenes11]

well I figure I just can't be the only one that doesn't care enough to read and dissect huge posts along with read the accompanying links + watch the videos. I mean, it's great in the context of a real argument where swaying people makes a difference, but most people here can't be arsed to spend that much time.

[Elvis]

I'm learning why people are so frustrated to argue with you elvis. You really gotta learn to make your points a little more succinct and focused.

I read the beginning and then skipped to the end. It went from the name KONY getting out to sanctions on egypt/syria...

I will never understand this. Entire TOMES have been written about the issues discussed here and you cannot stand reading a forum post.

I've been mocked for including hyperlinks IN THE TEXT of my post as well. Not as a separate distracting mess, but rather seamless.

As to Syria/Egypt - he brought up Syria. Should I not respond?

You complimented his post - which implies you read it - above but yet you missed that part.

[Demosthenes11]

I will never understand this. Entire TOMES have been written about the issues discussed here and you cannot stand reading a forum post.

I've been mocked for including hyperlinks IN THE TEXT of my post as well. Not as a separate distracting mess, but rather seamless.

As to Syria/Egypt - he brought up Syria. Should I not respond?

You complimented his post - which implies you read it - above but yet you missed that part.

I read his post because it was clearly focused and 1/4 of the size of yours.

[Elvis]

I read his post because it was clearly focused and 1/4 of the size of yours.

How can you know what I'm even saying if you're not reading it.

[Demosthenes11]

because I start reading it...

I'm not saying you are wrong or your arguments suck, just the style is what turns a lot of people off from you. A focused, succinct argument is a lot more powerful than a long, expansive one.

[Cleverness]

Perm is actually right though, Africa is 1 giant shithole. Getting rid of 1 douche in a nation of douches, in a country that has many douches, as well as AIDS and giant rats that eat babies while they sleep, is not really doing much. Africa has a shitton of problems, and this Kony guy on the scale of things is not the worst thing they have going for them. His own government is worse than he is, he's just getting the spotlight cause a video pointed him out. Even if the FB guy who he took a SS off comes off kinda self-entitled he actually has a point that sitting here doing nothing but watching Youtube and donating a few bucks isn't gonna fix what's wrong with even just that part of the country if you got rid of this 1 guy.

[tyven]

IM BOUT TO LOCK THE SHIT OUT OF THIS THREAD

[Elvis]

because I start reading it...

I'm not saying you are wrong or your arguments suck, just the style is what turns a lot of people off from you. A focused, succinct argument is a lot more powerful than a long, expansive one.

Just because an argument is long (not the same as characterizing it as 'expansive') does not mean it is unfocused.

I didn't meander in the above post.

I addressed the quoted sections of ronin's post.

I've seen people here quote entire articles as a form of argument.

And Perm cited a guy from Facebook whose name is obscured, as an authority on the issue of solidarity activism.

What you're telling me is that you prefer sophistry.

[MF Perm tha Fineass]

I'm learning why people are so frustrated to argue with you elvis. You really gotta learn to make your points a little more succinct and focused.

I read the beginning and then skipped to the end. It went from the name KONY getting out to sanctions on egypt/syria...

cocaine is a helluva drug

[tyven]

i for one appreciate his zeal

[Caiyuo]

seriously that shit's pretty hard to read. In the link earlier of answering Milkster's question about Israel-Palestine, I would be genuinely shocked if he felt like he knew what the fuck after that. I feel like it's mainly a matter of splitting up "this is the answer to your question" from "if you would like to know more, you can also look at this mountain of citable context I have". I'm not even trying to be a jerk, I just think your insight that seems to be pretty valued is kind of lost in the way you present it.

[Elvis]

Well, with respect to Milkster:

I prefaced my comment by saying I have a particular point of view. The issue is polarizing and highly contentious so he should take my opinion w/ a grain of salt.

I then cited an Israeli author. The author is the son of former Israeli officer in the 1948 War for Israeli Independence (as it is known to Israelis), and who was later a general in the 1967 war. The author's family has deep roots in the Zionist movement - that was my point.

The author's niece was killed in a suicide bombing terrorist attack. The author's sister (and mother of the murdered girl), went on to become a peace advocate (she is also a teacher and has written about Israeli textbooks depictions of Palestinians - an issue we hear about but in the reverse).

I juxtaposed this biographical information to the video I then posted. The point was that all of that information underlined the profundity of the author's comments in the video. If he didn't have that kind of personal history, his words would not carry the weight it did (in my view).

And then I posted a video interview w/ a former Israeli soldier who fought w/ the Palmach in the 48' War.

I think the first source was a good primer for the conflict (from my political POV). The second is a bit more specific.

[Correction]

ITT: A post the length of a 5th grader's book report in a subforum about political discourse is too much for people to read and respond to.

[Cleverness]

ITT: A post the length of a 5th grader's book report in a subforum about political discourse is too much for people to read and respond to.

Which isn't what he said but considering how dense/stupid your track record shows you are, this is probably how you interpreted it.

[MF Perm tha Fineass]

ITT: A post the length of a 5th grader's book report in a subforum about political discourse is too much for people to read and respond to.

wild connections and meandering and not making lucid points is hard on the brain while I'm at the office making dat paper. so yes, fuckface, it is.