Teenager shot/killed while Tweek's hero gets off free

[Blubbartron]

You are fucking nuts dude lol. If your argument is lack of evidence, and you're leaning towards the "guilty" side, you don't seem to understand how the criminal justice system, let alone reason and common sense to begin with, function.

Trayvon wasn't even from the fucking area.

His father lived there, and my understanding is he bounced around from his mom's place to his dad's place (and some other place - his dad's gf's place?) with a great deal of frequency. Also, I wasn't suggesting that we were going to convict Trayvon of burglary, so the justice system isn't a factor at all. What I was doing was presenting a plausible theory to explain why Trayvon might attack Zimmerman without any apparent instigation, if that is in fact what happened.

[Meresgi]

This was an apartment complex. Not your home. Zimmerman was clearly chasing the kid based on the 911 call. That why he took off running in the first place. You ever walked around at night in an apartment complex and some random guy starts chasing you down? He had a loaded gun too. You really think Martin pulled a 180 and ambushed the guy?

Listen to the call, he runs for a bit you can tell because his breathing is very fast, then he obviously stops or at least slows to a walk as his breath slowly levels out. Are you telling me this guy, even though he wasn't as pudgy as he is now, was able to sprint > walk and then sprint again and still catch a teenager who played sports? Also TM was black and everyone knows black people run faster then anyone else, look at Kenya!

[Xajii]

And baseless accusations of criminal activity are a better explanation than the situation shown by evidence where a man with a gun was following him for an extended period of time without making himself apparent or explaining why?

[Rhinox]

Don't know of any black guys that can out run bullets

[Blubbartron]

And baseless accusations of criminal activity are a better explanation than the situation shown by evidence where a man with a gun was following him for an extended period of time without making himself apparent or explaining why?

As pointed out in the previous post, it's not completely baseless if Trayvon was previously suspended and had stolen items and burglary tools found on him. A history of criminal behavior/theft indicates the willingness to do it. Also, how was Trayvon supposed to know that Zimmerman had a CCW? Are we now imagining Zimmerman running down the streets full speed after Trayvon, gun drawn? Furthermore, how close was Zimmerman to Trayvon that he was supposed to make himself apparent or explain why he's following him? Was it "in view" following (which on a long street like shown in the video could be a hundred yards), or was it a few footsteps behind him?

You seem to have an image in your mind where Zimmerman is an obvious aggressor, chasing down this boy to execute him. The evidence (and lack thereof) doesn't support your conclusion. Try thinking a little more.

[Bregor]

Have we talked about how batshit crazy "Juror #37" is? If there was ever a compelling argument against leaving things up to "a jury of peers" then it's everything she has said since the trial. That makes me really really hope that I never pull jury duty somehow.

So what's a better way of arriving at a verdict than a jury trial? Honestly curious to hear what impartial, incorruptible answer is out there.

[Meresgi]

And baseless accusations

Seems to be what 99% of this thread is.

Don't know of any black guys that can out run bullets

[Xajii]

As pointed out in the previous post, it's not completely baseless if Trayvon was previously suspended and had stolen items and burglary tools found on him. A history of criminal behavior/theft indicates the willingness to do it. Also, how was Trayvon supposed to know that Zimmerman had a CCW? Are we now imagining Zimmerman running down the streets full speed after Trayvon, gun drawn? Furthermore, how close was Zimmerman to Trayvon that he was supposed to make himself apparent or explain why he's following him? Was it "in view" following (which on a long street like shown in the video could be a hundred yards), or was it a few footsteps behind him?

You seem to have an image in your mind where Zimmerman is an obvious aggressor, chasing down this boy to execute him. The evidence (and lack thereof) doesn't support your conclusion. Try thinking a little more.

No, but you definitely have an image of Martin in your head as somehow obviously a criminal because he'd been in trouble at school before.

I don't believe Zimmerman had plans to kill Martin. I believe he acted outside of his legal boundaries to be some sort of neighborhood vigilante and when he scared Martin into fearing for his safety, he was accosted physically, where he shot him dead. And I believe that he should have suffered consequences for this. I do not believe that there was evidence in the trial to convict him of Murder 2, and probably not Manslaughter 2 either, unfortunately. I do believe that police and prosecutors could have done a much better job with this case. I do believe that there should probably be some better laws about what you are and aren't allowed to do in terms of following random innocent people in a neighborhood.

[Tweek]

I believe he acted outside of his legal boundaries to be some sort of neighborhood vigilante and when he scared Martin into fearing for his safety, he was accosted physically, where he shot him dead. And I believe that he should have suffered consequences for this.

just explain why you think this. people who do not believe that have pointed to evidence to contradict it. What exactly makes you think Martin feared for his safety? Was it from Rachel Jeantel's testimony on trial? Did you watch her testimony? How do you feel about her being a credible witness (I don't think she made it sound like he feared for his safety) when she admitted to lying on the stand if in fact she did lead you to believe he was in fear for his safety? If it wasn't her testimony then what was it that made you think he was in fear for his safety? The fact that he was on top of GZ bashing his skull into the ground and hitting him?

I do believe that there should probably be some better laws about what you are and aren't allowed to do in terms of following random innocent people in a neighborhood.

Just fucking think about that statement man, how in the world do you think anyone could enforce this. Just as you think it's wrong that TM was profiled it's now wrong for anyone to just be walking around their fucking neighborhood? You can't possibly think someone walking around their own neighborhood should be made illegal. What if someone feels they were being followed and they weren't? This is much different than stalking which is a serious threat.

[archibaldcrane]

Trayvon was probably thinking "these stalker assholes always get away".

Or something like that.

[Blubbartron]

No, but you definitely have an image of Martin in your head as somehow obviously a criminal because he'd been in trouble at school before.

I don't believe Zimmerman had plans to kill Martin. I believe he acted outside of his legal boundaries to be some sort of neighborhood vigilante and when he scared Martin into fearing for his safety, he was accosted physically, where he shot him dead. And I believe that he should have suffered consequences for this. I do not believe that there was evidence in the trial to convict him of Murder 2, and probably not Manslaughter 2 either, unfortunately. I do believe that police and prosecutors could have done a much better job with this case. I do believe that there should probably be some better laws about what you are and aren't allowed to do in terms of following random innocent people in a neighborhood.

In terms of believing that Trayvon could plausibly have been responsible for the burglaries in the area, for which Zimmerman "profiled" him as a possible suspect/suspicious person, yes, the fact that Trayvon had stolen things in the past and had burglary tools is a strong indication that he is/was a burglar. Whether or not he committed those burglaries is impossible to say, but the likelihood certainly goes up dramatically.

[Tweek]

I don't have any reason to believe he was in the middle of burglarizing that community, or that he ever had burglarized that community. But I do think it's funny people are mad he was profiled as a burglar when in fact there was recent evidence from school that he may have been involved in burglaries.

[Rowe]

Ok, I have seen so much bullshit in this thread and on the news about it being a racist coverup because Zimmerman wasn't arrested the night of the shooting or the next day. The original investigators did not arrest him as they investigated the incident. The reason being the right to a speedy trial dictates that from the time of arrest prosecutors have a time limit in which to file charges. So I mentioned, http://www.criminaldefenseattorneyta...eedyTrial.aspx

175 days from arrest to file charges, once charges are filed it may take a long time before the case is goes to trial.

Here is a dose of fucking reality for everyone: We all profile everyone we look at. In it's most basic form profiling is the use of personal characteristics or behavior patterns to make generalizations about a person. As we engage in our everyday lives we look at everyone who comes into our field of view and assess their level of threat. That does not mean we are all engaging in racial or gender profiling as it has come to be defined in the recent past.

We have laws and a person's guilt or innocence is determined on the provable facts and likely circumstances supported by the facts.

It seems now people want to have thought police and make it a crime to look at a black person get out of a car in their general vicinity or approach them to ask them a question. Yeah white/hispanic people are so fucking scary we need to pass a law giving them the right to physically assault any white/hispanic who approaches them.

Zimmerman's greatest crime is not stopping to realize that getting out of his car, walking(possibly running for 10-20 seconds) toward the area he saw a black teenager, then wondering around that area for 2 minutes or more would lead to that teenager being forced to confront and physically assault him. Then he should have taken that beating for as long as the teenager determined it should last.

I guess our laws are totally fucked up and we have to fix them. We have to make sure every white/hispanic knows not to look at or approach a black teen or else whatever happens to them is their own damn fault.

[Xajii]

just explain why you think this. people who do not believe that have pointed to evidence to contradict it. What exactly makes you think Martin feared for his safety? Was it from Rachel Jeantel's testimony on trial? Did you watch her testimony? How do you feel about her being a credible witness (I don't think she made it sound like he feared for his safety) when she admitted to lying on the stand if in fact she did lead you to believe he was in fear for his safety? If it wasn't her testimony then what was it that made you think he was in fear for his safety? The fact that he was on top of GZ bashing his skull into the ground and hitting him?

Yeah one thing that I meant about the prosecution needing to have done a better job was just her in general. It sucks because she was the best 'witness' for his side but her entire story and demeanor and personality and capability was such that it would have honestly been better off if she didn't take the stand. I did watch, and no, my idea of him fearing for his safety is not based on anything she said. I don't trust her at all. I will explain why I think eh feared for his safety below.

Just fucking think about that statement man, how in the world do you think anyone could enforce this. Just as you think it's wrong that TM was profiled it's now wrong for anyone to just be walking around their fucking neighborhood? You can't possibly think someone walking around their own neighborhood should be made illegal. What if someone feels they were being followed and they weren't? This is much different than stalking which is a serious threat.

You are grossly misdemonstrating what Zimmerman was doing. He was initially just walking around his neighborhood, yes. That's fine. Then when he saw and profiled Martin, he began to follow him. I don't think that's acceptable behavior, but okay, let's say he really felt duty bound to his Neighborhood Watch BS or he was legitimately concerned for the safety of his family or his neighbors, so he decided to call the police. That's fine. However, he definitely continued to follow Martin for much longer than necessary and did not let up.

* Note - I understand this section of what happened is unclear as it is a bit difficult to place their positions and line it up with the 911 call. However, I think we can all agree that Zimmerman was striaght up following this kid for some distance.

Now, all I know is that if I'm being followed by a stranger on the phone, I'm concerned as shit for my safety. No matter what.

We don't know the story between the following and them on the ground. But regardless of whether or not Martin could have known that Zimmerman had a loaded gun, there is reason to fear for your safety if you are being stalked. Absolutely.

Also, I really don't like the fact that Zimmerman was walking around with a loaded gun if he was "just walking around his own neighborhood". Not trying to start a gun law debate, but doesn't that seem a little weird?

[shaddix]

What do you make of the four minute delay between when TM started running and the 911 call reporting the fight?

[Denchi]

While I certainly understand the sentiment of being scared by someone following you, the law reads:

"...including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony."

I cannot believe that Trayvon would have been so scared that he believed physically assaulting Zimmerman was the only way to prevent great bodily harm or death. And nor should it be reasonable to assume that someone following you means they will definitely kill or maim you.

[Plow]

Three words:

Stand your Ground.

If self-defense works for GZ (it does in this case) then why does TM have to run or 'call 911' when he could have evoked SyG?

Because SyG wasn't a factor, and because he was getting beat on when he fired the gun? He didn't just turn and shoot down someone who was following him. Pretty sure there is a difference between. Also Zimmerman called 911 before the events and Tm didn't call at all. Why is this even an argument.

Holy shit lol.

This thread is just an infinite loop of stupid, in a page or two Plow will be back to talk about gun laws.

The quality of this thread when I stopped posting in it says more than I could ever hope to.

[Seiji Okita]

Yeah one thing that I meant about the prosecution needing to have done a better job was just her in general. It sucks because she was the best 'witness' for his side but her entire story and demeanor and personality and capability was such that it would have honestly been better off if she didn't take the stand. I did watch, and no, my idea of him fearing for his safety is not based on anything she said. I don't trust her at all. I will explain why I think eh feared for his safety below.


You are grossly misdemonstrating what Zimmerman was doing. He was initially just walking around his neighborhood, yes. That's fine. Then when he saw and profiled Martin, he began to follow him. I don't think that's acceptable behavior, but okay, let's say he really felt duty bound to his Neighborhood Watch BS or he was legitimately concerned for the safety of his family or his neighbors, so he decided to call the police. That's fine. However, he definitely continued to follow Martin for much longer than necessary and did not let up.

* Note - I understand this section of what happened is unclear as it is a bit difficult to place their positions and line it up with the 911 call. However, I think we can all agree that Zimmerman was striaght up following this kid for some distance.

Now, all I know is that if I'm being followed by a stranger on the phone, I'm concerned as shit for my safety. No matter what.

We don't know the story between the following and them on the ground. But regardless of whether or not Martin could have known that Zimmerman had a loaded gun, there is reason to fear for your safety if you are being stalked. Absolutely.

Also, I really don't like the fact that Zimmerman was walking around with a loaded gun if he was "just walking around his own neighborhood". Not trying to start a gun law debate, but doesn't that seem a little weird?

Well see the way it was presented in court says that Zimmerman saw Trayvon in front of the particular house and was suspicious(on his way to Target, he goes the same time on the same night every week) it made him suspicious so he pulled into the clubhouse parking lot for the community and called the police. While he was parked their on the phone he could see Trayvon walking, Trayvon passed his position and headed toward the area where the T intersection is. This was out of Zimmerman's view and the officer on the phone asked if he could see where he went. Zimmerman pulls out of the parking lot and drives in the direction Trayvon had went, this is when he parks his car on the curb and eventually gets out to walk toward the T intersection.

[Seiji Okita]

Ok, I have seen so much bullshit in this thread and on the news about it being a racist coverup because Zimmerman wasn't arrested the night of the shooting or the next day. The original investigators did not arrest him as they investigated the incident. The reason being the right to a speedy trial dictates that from the time of arrest prosecutors have a time limit in which to file charges. So I mentioned, http://www.criminaldefenseattorneyta...eedyTrial.aspx

175 days from arrest to file charges, once charges are filed it may take a long time before the case is goes to trial.

Here is a dose of fucking reality for everyone: We all profile everyone we look at. In it's most basic form profiling is the use of personal characteristics or behavior patterns to make generalizations about a person. As we engage in our everyday lives we look at everyone who comes into our field of view and assess their level of threat. That does not mean we are all engaging in racial or gender profiling as it has come to be defined in the recent past.

We have laws and a person's guilt or innocence is determined on the provable facts and likely circumstances supported by the facts.

It seems now people want to have thought police and make it a crime to look at a black person get out of a car in their general vicinity or approach them to ask them a question. Yeah white/hispanic people are so fucking scary we need to pass a law giving them the right to physically assault any white/hispanic who approaches them.

Zimmerman's greatest crime is not stopping to realize that getting out of his car, walking(possibly running for 10-20 seconds) toward the area he saw a black teenager, then wondering around that area for 2 minutes or more would lead to that teenager being forced to confront and physically assault him. Then he should have taken that beating for as long as the teenager determined it should last.

I guess our laws are totally fucked up and we have to fix them. We have to make sure every white/hispanic knows not to look at or approach a black teen or else whatever happens to them is their own damn fault.

Lol driving while white.

This thread. Whadda twist!

[Tweek]

there is reason to fear for your safety if you are being stalked. Absolutely.

you used the word stalked again, I wouldn't describe what GZ did as stalked.

Also, I really don't like the fact that Zimmerman was walking around with a loaded gun if he was "just walking around his own neighborhood". Not trying to start a gun law debate, but doesn't that seem a little weird?

No. I don't think owning a gun, or carrying a gun is weird. Neither does the law. Neither does the concealed carry permit in which GZ qualified for.