Teenager shot/killed while Tweek's hero gets off free

[Tagus]

I just don't get how he at least didn't get hit with manslaughter. You can get manslaughter just hitting someone with a car.

[MF Perm tha Fineass]

[Tweek]

I just don't get how he at least didn't get hit with manslaughter. You can get manslaughter just hitting someone with a car.

I can't believe I have to explain this.

You wouldn't get manslaughter for hitting someone with your car if it was self-defense. Most vehicular manslaughter cases do not involve self-defense. There is a difference between killing someone lawfully and killing someone unlawfully. They charged him with manslaughter but he was found not guilty.

[Xajii]

you used the word stalked again, I wouldn't describe what GZ did as stalked.



No. I don't think owning a gun, or carrying a gun is weird. Neither does the law. Neither does the concealed carry permit in which GZ qualified for.

I can agree on both points. For the gun thing, I was more just saying it rubs me the wrong way personally, but I guess it's not that uncommon in that region of the country. Just not used to it personally.

My overall point that was responded to by another poster about feeling unsafe when being followed - yeah, obviously the definition of self-defense and the reasonable level of fear when simply being followed are at odds. Just feels like a technical victory - it shouldn't have happened, and the man that is still alive is at some fault, and I wish there were legal recourse for him to suffer the consequences of that.

It really irks me how he doesn't seem to care at all about what happened.

[chiyio]

It really irks me how he doesn't seem to care at all about what happened.

He's had plenty of time by now to resolve any cognitive dissonance he felt with self justification. He's practically forced to.

I'd suggest this book if you want to understand it. http://www.amazon.com/Mistakes-Were-.../dp/0156033909

[Tweek]

Just feels like a technical victory - it shouldn't have happened, and the man that is still alive is at some fault

I agree. It's extremely sad and could have been avoided. I do place some fault on GZ but where I disagree is:

and the man that is still alive is at some fault, and I wish there were legal recourse for him to suffer the consequences of that..

because what he did as far as we know wasn't illegal. He didn't break the law so it wouldn't be right to punish him for his mistake. Wanting him to suffer consequences would be an emotional reaction to the events. That's why I'm glad that the jurors were able to listen to the evidence presented in the case and make a logical conclusion that there plenty of reasonable doubts. Any other conclusion would be again an emotional reaction.

It really irks me how he doesn't seem to care at all about what happened.

It's hard to think what this trial has done to him. Shit the very same beliefs he's had his entire life, the rights he's stood up for, the people, the support he's given to the NAACP (i don't have a source) are the very same that turned his back on him before looking at the evidence and even after ignoring the evidence. Shit even the President he supported and voted for made a comment about his case after he was found not guilty in the US Court of law. Can't believe that would sit well or what it would do to tear you up psychologically. Look at the people who demanded he be arrested when the Captain told the media there wasn't even enough evidence.

Also people act like his on camera interviews or reactions to the trial are the only emotion he has. Or that he hasn't been coached by his defense attorneys on how to react and how it will make him look. He can still face civil charges and anything he does or says can be used against him in that case. I find it hard to believe that having to take this young man's life won't haunt him for the rest of his existence even if he feels it was completely just.

[Tarage]

I think the parents will probably bring civil suit against Zimmerman, but I think they'll lose again.

Have we talked about how batshit crazy "Juror #37" is? If there was ever a compelling argument against leaving things up to "a jury of peers" then it's everything she has said since the trial. That makes me really really hope that I never pull jury duty somehow.

Turns out we will never get good jurys again because the people smart enough to serve on a jury are smart enough to get out of jury duty.

This thread is pointless now. It's a bunch of folks pissing on each other and calling it rain and the occasional attempt to derail the derailment with a funny picture.

Can we lock this and be done?

[archibaldcrane]

Got my jury duty starting in 10 days, skipped it last time (the week after my wedding) so I figured I'd better actually show up now. $40/day, woohoo - nothing like taking a 93% pay cut in order to do my civic duty...

[popsiclestix]

I think the parents will probably bring civil suit against Zimmerman, but I think they'll lose again.

Have we talked about how batshit crazy "Juror #37" is? If there was ever a compelling argument against leaving things up to "a jury of peers" then it's everything she has said since the trial. That makes me really really hope that I never pull jury duty somehow.

The civil case will go extremely badly for Trayvon Martin's family. ALL the evidence regarding TM's past that was ruled as irrelevant for George Zimmerman's self defense case will suddenly become relevant. George Zimmerman will have to take the stand and looking at the police walk through of the events with ZT, it seems pretty obvious on what happened -- TM jumped GZ to initiate the ordeal.

[archibaldcrane]

But if they rule that Zimmy is 50+% responsible, there will still be a partial judgement. Even in the murder case, 3 of the 6 jurors wanted at least manslaughter (2 manslaughter, 1 2nd degree murder) in the initial vote. Civil suits aren't "beyond a reasonable doubt", they're "who is more responsible" - and clearly from the phone call Trayvon felt threatened by Zimmy's profiling him and following him.

[Tweek]

But if they rule that Zimmy is 50+% responsible, there will still be a partial judgement. Even in the murder case, 3 of the 6 jurors wanted at least manslaughter (2 manslaughter, 1 2nd degree murder) in the initial vote. Civil suits aren't "beyond a reasonable doubt", they're "who is more responsible" - and clearly from the phone call Trayvon felt threatened by Zimmy's profiling him and following him.

meeeeeh "clearly"? threatened can mean many things I wouldn't say it was clear he was felt his life was in danger I don't think it was even close to that level of threat.


it would be wise for them not to even pursue the civil case, I don't think GZ will lose that one either.

While the media encourages Trayvon Martin’s family to launch a civil suit against George Zimmerman for the killing of Martin, the consequences to the Martin’s reputation could be disastrous. Thanks to discovery rules, which apply differently in civil court than they do in federal court, more information about Trayvon’s family background, prior criminal behavior including fighting, and drug use could meet the public eye.


The Martin family would have a better shot at a win in a civil trial than they did in a criminal proceeding, since the standard of proof is difference – preponderance of the evidence vs. beyond a reasonable doubt. Zimmerman would also have to testify. But by the same token, Zimmerman reportedly has little money on hand for a judgment, and Florida’s “stand your ground” law could become an issue in the civil suit. The Martin family would also risk having to pay attorneys fees should they lose. No doubt Zimmerman would also use his acquittal in his criminal trial as evidence of his innocence in a civil trial as well.

[popsiclestix]

But if they rule that Zimmy is 50+% responsible, there will still be a partial judgement. Even in the murder case, 3 of the 6 jurors wanted at least manslaughter (2 manslaughter, 1 2nd degree murder) in the initial vote. Civil suits aren't "beyond a reasonable doubt", they're "who is more responsible" - and clearly from the phone call Trayvon felt threatened by Zimmy's profiling him and following him.

With the limited evidence relevant to 2nd degree murder. Confusing the jury with some "well at least consider manslaughter" is not what the case was about and further undermines the whole prosecution.

The circumstances of GZ following TM was because he was trying to pinpoint his direction. He was asked by the police dispatch to give an address but not get out of his car. This isn't a command because they are concerned for the safety of the person on the phone. NOT BECAUSE THE CALLER MIGHT SHOOT PEOPLE, BUT BECAUSE THE CALLER MIGHT GET ATTACKED. He did get attacked by TM. This is pretty evident. The initiator was TM by confronting GZ.

If TM was trying to flee to his home because he felt threatened, he should have got away since it was off the main road. If TM was showing signs of any injuries like being hit by a car and GZ had no injuries then it would be obvious 2nd degree murder. GZ doesn't look like is physically capable of chasing down TM. Certainly if he was chasing him with a gun like what people think.

[popsiclestix]

No doubt Zimmerman would also use his acquittal in his criminal trial as evidence of his innocence in a civil trial as well.

No doubt. GZ's attorney will approach the judge and ask for immediate acquittal because he was already tried under criminal court.

YOU CAN'T BRING ANYONE UP FOR CIVIL CASE IF THE CRIMINAL COURTS RULED ACQUITTAL!

[archibaldcrane]

meeeeeh "clearly"? threatened can mean many things I wouldn't say it was clear he was felt his life was in danger

Who is talking about life in danger?

Trayvon wasn't the one bringing a deadly weapon to the altercation, he probably just took a swing or two at the guy he knew was following him.

[archibaldcrane]

Remember, the defense didn't prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmy's life was in danger - that wasn't their burden of proof. All they had to do was convince the jury that it wasn't unreasonable to doubt that Zimmy may have been in a situation where he could have sustained great bodily harm.

Even if you think there's only, say, a 20% chance Zimmy was in danger of great bodily harm - you acquit in that circumstance. However in a civil suit, you may well think that Zimmy was 80% responsible - and that's more than enough to make him pay.

[Tweek]

he probably just took a swing or two at the guy he knew was following him.

you haven't paid attention to anything i see.


Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman bashing his head into the ground and hitting him from above while breaking his nose. This was part of the testimony from a witness and matched Zimmermans account of it. It also lined up with the evidence from the wounds on Zimmerman, the lack of wounds on Martin and the grass stains on Zimmermans back and grass stains on Martins knees. But you're probably right, he probably just took a swing or two at the guy

[archibaldcrane]

Zimmerman's broken nose was the only injury of any significance here. He didn't even have a concussion. Are you convinced beyond a reasonable doubt that Trayvon was attempting to murder him?

Serious question.

[archibaldcrane]

Or more likely was he going to mess up that creepy cracker following him for no good reason and let that be it?

[archibaldcrane]

Seriously though, you are taking Zimmerman's word as gospel here, and it's weird. He has THE BIGGEST REASON TO SHAPE THE FACTS TO HIS BENEFIT OF ANYONE INVOLVED.

[Tweek]

Zimmerman's broken nose was the only injury of any significance here. He didn't even have a concussion. Are you convinced beyond a reasonable doubt that Trayvon was attempting to murder him?

Serious question.

he had lacerations on the back of his head.

and no but I do believe Zimmerman felt he was in serious danger