Teenager shot/killed while Tweek's hero gets off free

[archibaldcrane]

They were stupid if they firmly believed Zimmerman was in the wrong.

Wrong for calling the cops on a kid who was walking home from a store? Yeah.

Wrong for shooting someone when his life wasn't in danger? Sure. (you can argue against this if you want to argue that Trayvon was trying to kill Zimmerman)

Within his legal rights to call the cops on a kid who was walking home from a store, and shooting him for getting punched? That too.

[Denchi]

I've had the cops called on me while walking around the neighborhood. White male here, upper-middle-class neighborhood. Cutting through yards, being in high school, makes people suspicious. Add in a level of paranoia because of a streak of robberies in the neighborhood? Please, worst case scenario is the cop talks to the kid, realizes it was a mistake, everyone's on their merry way, which is what happened with me. It's not absurd that Zimmerman would be suspicious, and it's not a crime.

Also another time we actually got taken into the police station for "Curfew." Didn't help that all of my friends were high as fuck (I don't smoke). Was quite hilarious watching the cops have fun with my friends. "DO YOU KIDS LIKE SUPER TROOPERS?!" *uncontrollable giggling ensues* Stupid shit happens in neighborhoods.

[archibaldcrane]

Didn't I just say it wasn't a crime?

That doesn't make his suspicions correct.

Opposite of correct?

Yeah, you know.

[Denchi]

So are you saying he was wrong to be suspicious? Or just his suspicion was wrong in the end?

[kuronosan]

So are you saying he was wrong to be suspicious? Or just his suspicion was wrong in the end?

He was wrong to go to lengths he did to prove his suspicions to be correct when he had no real way of knowing whether or not they were. He should have called the cops, told them the direction the kid was heading in and been done with it. Zimmerman never should have left his car.

[archibaldcrane]

So are you saying he was wrong to be suspicious? Or just his suspicion was wrong in the end?

He wasn't just suspicious, he was dead set positive that Trayvon was a criminal. "these assholes always get away" etc.

[Niiro]

Trayvon seemed pretty dead set on proving him right.

[Enkidu]

He was wrong to go to lengths he did to prove his suspicions to be correct when he had no real way of knowing whether or not they were. He should have called the cops, told them the direction the kid was heading in and been done with it. Zimmerman never should have left his car.

Most rational people would agree with this, however the same holds true for Martin. He should have continued on his way home, called the cops, and not physically assaulted Zimmerman. The only crime committed that night was assault and battery, perhaps even assault with a deadly weapon if you want to argue that concrete is a deadly weapon.

Martin didn't deserve to die and I don't think Martin's goal was to kill Zimmerman, but I think Zimmerman felt his life was in danger and I think that was a reasonable belief considering his injuries and Martin's lack of injuries. Weight and age aside, Martin had him outclassed as a fighter and I think it's clear Zimmerman believed him to be a dangerous criminal rather then a teenager with anger problems.

[kuronosan]

You misunderstand. I'm of the belief now that Martin likely started the fight as a matter of "amagad pride" and "gotta prove I'm thuggin'" as well as out of genuine fear for what this guy was doing. He could have gone home and lived but, given his upbringing, do you really think he would have in any other similar situation?

You have to understand his personality and what it means in terms of how he will react to a given situation. I'm certain Zimmerman felt he was in danger. The problem is that he created that danger. He created this situation that he could have otherwise just left alone instead of playing a hero. He went chasing down a Pitbull after calling animal control and then got scared when it started biting him. It's as simple as that.

In short, it wasn't Zimmerman's call to judge whether he was a criminal (see archi's comment). He should have called the police, said there was someone suspicious and to send the police, and left it at that.

It's really difficult to paint this so black and white when it's obviously grey. Zimmerman and Martin are both guilty of letting their emotions dictate the next move and the end result is a teenager is dead and some well-to-do wannabe-hero has ruined his own life and the lives of others.

It amazes me that so many people say that Martin should have went home. Are you the same people who yell in theaters "HEY DON'T GO IN THERE HE'S BEHIND THE DOOR!!!!!"? Hindsight is 20/20 and people are dynamic creatures. It's obvious he should have just ran home instead of being a bad-enough-dude. It may not have been so obvious to him and that is where the problem lies.

[shaddix]

Wrong for calling the cops on a kid who was walking home from a store? Yeah.

Wrong for shooting someone when his life wasn't in danger? Sure. (you can argue against this if you want to argue that Trayvon was trying to kill Zimmerman)

Within his legal rights to call the cops on a kid who was walking home from a store, and shooting him for getting punched? That too.

So you don't believe it is "right" to kill someone when you believe you are in imminent danger of great bodily harm?

[shaddix]

You misunderstand. I'm of the belief now that Martin likely started the fight as a matter of "amagad pride" and "gotta prove I'm thuggin'" as well as out of genuine fear for what this guy was doing. He could have gone home and lived but, given his upbringing, do you really think he would have in any other similar situation?

You have to understand his personality and what it means in terms of how he will react to a given situation. I'm certain Zimmerman felt he was in danger. The problem is that he created that danger. He created this situation that he could have otherwise just left alone instead of playing a hero. He went chasing down a Pitbull after calling animal control and then got scared when it started biting him. It's as simple as that.

In short, it wasn't Zimmerman's call to judge whether he was a criminal (see archi's comment). He should have called the police, said there was someone suspicious and to send the police, and left it at that.

It's really difficult to paint this so black and white when it's obviously grey. Zimmerman and Martin are both guilty of letting their emotions dictate the next move and the end result is a teenager is dead and some well-to-do wannabe-hero has ruined his own life and the lives of others.

It amazes me that so many people say that Martin should have went home. Are you the same people who yell in theaters "HEY DON'T GO IN THERE HE'S BEHIND THE DOOR!!!!!"? Hindsight is 20/20 and people are dynamic creatures. It's obvious he should have just ran home instead of being a bad-enough-dude. It may not have been so obvious to him and that is where the problem lies.

So Trayvon was a mistreated pitbull, and has no responsibility for his actions. His upbringing gives him a pass when he acts violently towards others in retribution for lawful actions. I don't understand how you can incriminate Zimmerman for leaving his truck, then give Trayvon a pass for hitting him in the face when I don't think any reasonable person would do such a thing given the situation. I would say it is more reasonable to follow someone than it is to hit them in the face, simply because one is legal and the other is not.

[archibaldcrane]

So you don't believe it is "right" to kill someone when you believe you are in imminent danger of great bodily harm?

Depends on whether you are correct.

I don't think Zimmerman was in nearly as perilous a situation as he suggested he was after the fact. He's a pussy who can't take a punch (may have never been in a fight in his life), got scared and overwhelmingly escalated the use of force.

I don't believe that Zimmerman would've suffered "great bodily harm" if he hadn't shot Trayvon, although some people would consider a broken nose to be "great bodily harm". It's a pretty vague definition. However, there's enough reasonable doubt in there that he might have suffered as such (and rightfully so) that he got off.

[Denchi]

I guess that's where I get confused about this whole case.

Regardless of all of the details, what kind of changes could we, as a society, have made to prevent this from happening?

- Create a law that states you are legally obligated to stay as far away from any potentially dangerous situation when you carry a firearm, whether or not you are the aggressor?
- Illegal to follow someone?
- Punishment for falsely identifying someone?
- Outlaw neighborhood watch?

If Im missing some blatant ones that make sense, I'd like to hear them. I just don't see how anything suggested above could possibly be seen as an improvement.

[archibaldcrane]

Well, the most clear-cut one would be to not allow concealed carry, since Zim wasn't a LEO he wouldn't have had a gun in that case.

[archibaldcrane]

Beyond that we could change the standard for self-defense to place the burden of proof (that he was in a situation where he risked great bodily harm beyond a reasonable doubt) on the shooter.

[Denchi]

Beyond that we could change the standard for self-defense to place the burden of proof (that he was in a situation where he risked great bodily harm beyond a reasonable doubt) on the shooter.

In the states without Stand Your Ground this is the case, as it is with any Affirmative Defense claim (Insanity, Duress, etc). You claim that you broke the law, but did so justifiably, so you are put the test to prove that you did it justly. The burden of proof is on the defendant.

SYG changed that to switch the burden to the Prosecution (although you would still bear the burden of proof in any pretrial hearing). This was intended to fix the flaw that requires someone to prove their own innocence beyond a shadow of a doubt, "guilty until proven innocent." The unintended consequences could be that innocent people, acting 100% justifiably, may not have enough evidence to exonerate themselves to a jury, and are sent to prison. Personally, the idea of an innocent person going to prison is worse than a murderer going free, I suppose it just depends on which side of the fence you want to be on.

[kuronosan]

So Trayvon was a mistreated pitbull, and has no responsibility for his actions. His upbringing gives him a pass when he acts violently towards others in retribution for lawful actions. I don't understand how you can incriminate Zimmerman for leaving his truck, then give Trayvon a pass for hitting him in the face when I don't think any reasonable person would do such a thing given the situation. I would say it is more reasonable to follow someone than it is to hit them in the face, simply because one is legal and the other is not.

Did you read anything I said? He's a product of his upbringing. I don't think anywhere in my statement did I say that absolves him or "gives him a pass". Your argument is predicated on Martin being "reasonable".

And no, following a stranger because you suspect they are guilty of some crime is not reasonable either. I said Martin's behavior was understandable. I didn't say it was justified. Zimmerman's behavior, however, was neither understandable nor justified.

[archibaldcrane]

Personally, the idea of an innocent person going to prison is worse than a murderer going free, I suppose it just depends on which side of the fence you want to be on.

I want to be on the side where people don't feel emboldened by taking their guns around thinking they can kill anyone and claim self-defense vs. anyone they get into a fight with.

The "innocent person going to prison" has their day in court - the person they shot and killed doesn't get that. Given that is the case - that they killed someone, I think the burden of proof should be on them.

[Deader2818]

Have fun trying to change gun laws.

[Niiro]

And no, following a stranger because you suspect they are guilty of some crime is not reasonable either.

...really?

It's unreasonable to keep an eye on someone while calling the cops?

inb4 "he chased him halfway across town in a dogged pursuit" he followed him for a minute in order to keep him in view while he told the cops where they were, he neither trying to or capable of catching him.