Random Christianity Discussion

[Moosey]

As I've mentioned several times in the past that I intend to make a specific post so as to not contribute to major thread hijacking, here it is.

It is exceedingly obvious that the people of these forums have a lot of questions, concerns, objections and comments on Christianity, and religion in general. I can't speak too much on "religion in general" as I am not a religious person, but I can speak much more about a wide range of topics as far as Christianity goes. My main goal in making this thread is an attempt to correct misunderstandings that people in general have about Christianity, and to answer any other concerns as a result.

All that I ask is to keep this thread civil, free of trolling, and full of legitimate discussion. If you ask a serious question, you will get a serious answer. I'm not a mod, so I can't exactly enforce any of these things, but I simply ask you adhere to the forum rules, and for a mutual respect, as you will have mine.

I am no theologian, but I am studying to become a pastor and as such, I feel qualified to accurately represent my faith in a public forum. I can assure you that the responses I give are Biblically accurate, and not the product of religious political agendas. If you're a person who thinks the Bible IS a religious political agenda, well, I'll try to provide you with something to satisfy your questions too.

[Ragnus]

I'm not trolling here.

After years of trying to figure it out while in Catholic / Jesuit schooling I ended up coming to the conclusion that it boils down to "Don't be a dick." Which is why I gave up on it since the whole faith has been entangled in things that often go against that primary notion.

[Moosey]

I can definitely understand how you came to that conclusion, as I also grew up in the Catholic church. I don't want to bash them too terribly much because they, for all intents and purposes, have mostly solid doctrine, they just have poor execution of that teaching. During the time I spent as a Catholic I felt like the whole thing was pervaded by guilt and keeping up looks to fit in with the community, yet outside of church no one really did that, most people just attended out of habit. I do believe that the Catholic Church is largely responsible for the negative view on Christianity that many people have today, because they repeat the same failings that are shown in the Old Testament.

The first and foremost failure is the position of the Pope, and especially that his word is infallible. Nothing in the Bible supports this, and if that were true, how could the church ever reverse any decision that the Pope decreed? If he gave a perfect answer the first time, why would it ever need to be changed? But they have changed their stance on many issues as society and cultures change.

The second part of that failure is the decrees themselves. They put too much stock into the Ten Commandments and try to make people hold to those 10 laws. That is the exact reason it didn't work in the OT! Humans are terrible at following rules! I'm sure we are all aware of situations in our own lives, both with ourselves or with others, in which we failed to follow the rules in some aspect or another.

With that kind of system in place, no one would get to Heaven. When Moses lead the Israelites out of Egypt, not one of them died until they ASKED God for a set of rules to live by. After they got those rules, they started dropping like flies, because humans are terrible at following rules. God knew this, and God had long-since planned for it, so he sent Jesus into the world, because God does want people in Heaven. Under the New Testament Commandments given by Jesus, all he asks is that you love God with everything you've got, and to love other people as much as you love yourself, as these encompass all the previous commandments. I assume this is what you concluded to be "don't be a dick". When Jesus died, that sacrifice covered all our sins, past, present, and future. Just because a person becomes a Christian, doesn't mean they stop sinning.

Unfortunately, a lot of people still try to strictly adhere to that old set of laws, and make their lives and others very troubling because of their legalistic attitude. They forget the love aspect of Christianity, and only recognize the law part. People will be people, and not everyone who claims to be a Christian, is truly a Christian. To be sure of their faith, one must inquire to that person's doctrine(what they really believe), and if it measures up to what the Bible says. Even this is only part of it as if that person is not living a loving, respectful, just life(in general, people have bad days), I would argue that person is not a Christian.

[Sera]

I got really excited about the prospect of a thread like this but then I remembered that you're the guy who penned this gem:

Early childhood experiences, often due to lack of male attention (daddy issues) are commonly what makes people gay, there are biological influences, but no one is inherently gay. I don't think it's as much a choice, rather a disorder.

and realized that engaging in any sort of rational discussion with you is impossible.

[hey]

I ended up coming to the conclusion that it boils down to "Don't be a dick."

I'm curious how you even came to that conclusion.

If he gave a perfect answer the first time, why would it ever need to be changed? But they have changed their stance on many issues as society and cultures change.

Except that the perfect answer to a question isn't always the same. Shit's situational.

[Eurell]

lol, Why did he get banned?

[Sera]

He reported my post... and I didn't actually do anything wrong.

[Eurell]

lol -.- How dare you call people irrational yo!

[Demosthenes11]

have we gotten to the part where we realize the bible is not infallible (written by men) and many parts are there only to spread Christianity (birth control, ew homos, etc)?

[Dantrag]

I'll have to agree with Sera lol. That's a pretty silly quote.

[Acturus]

I can definitely understand how you came to that conclusion, as I also grew up in the Catholic church. I don't want to bash them too terribly much because they, for all intents and purposes, have mostly solid doctrine, they just have poor execution of that teaching. During the time I spent as a Catholic I felt like the whole thing was pervaded by guilt and keeping up looks to fit in with the community, yet outside of church no one really did that, most people just attended out of habit. I do believe that the Catholic Church is largely responsible for the negative view on Christianity that many people have today, because they repeat the same failings that are shown in the Old Testament.

That can't be right. The Catholic church only ever comes up in the news because of two issues: One is reproductive rights arguments, the other is random acts of pedophillia committed by clergymen. Even then, it's the church, and almost never its followers. Hell, on a report-to-report basis, I think we see more public school teachers in the news for molestation than we see priests these days.

I personally have never seen a catholic church issue a call to arms for its parishoners to brandish signs declaring how much god hates fags (and I've stepped inside my fair share of them). Any catholic lobbying or public pandering pales in comparison to the megachurch evangelicals and redneck lawmakers who hide behind their faith in god as they work to undermine progressive, equal-rights movements in the US.

No, the catholic church is where the the negative impression of christianity started, sure, but it's far from any significant reason why christianity is viewed negatively today.

Arguably, christianity is viewed negatively today because of how many worshipers of many demoninations refuse to see anything about the way the world works beyond a book, a jewish dude modeling Birkenstocks, and whatever fears politicians, ministers, and media outlets have mongered to them about the war on "their religion".

*Edit* he got banned? Aw.

[The Blackrose]

Temp-ban, fellas.

[Acevalefor]

I had a whole thing typed out then firefox crashed on me, so I will start small.

The reason for the failings in Christianity are explained very well by Reggy Joiner

“The lampstand was position strategically to do one things: cast its light on the table and on the bread that represented God's provision and presence. For generations the lampstand of the tabernacle stood to highlight the object that best represented God's goodness and provision, the same object that Jesus would one day use to symbolize His own body. (Jesus compares church to a lampstand in Revelation- a strong reminder of the church's responsibility). Everything about these churches 0 their teaching, practices, and work-- was challenged for one reason in Revelation: They were losing their effectiveness as God's light to their communities.

It is important to note that the lampstand in the tabernacle did not cast a broad light, illuminating everything in the tabernacle; the focus of its beam was specifically on the bread of presence. Likewise, the church is not called to illuminate everything -- its light should be concentrated on showing others who God is. For church leaders, our jobs are clear: we have to keep the wicks trimmed, the light burning, and the lampstand in its proper place. if the light begins to dim, we must immediately move into action. God's intention is for the church to be placed strategically in culture in order to show Himself to the world. Anytime the church becomes ineffective in its role to illuminate Christ, it must rekindle and reinvent itself around its core purpose.”

He goes on to explain that instead of Christians, and, specifically Church leaders keeping the lampstand in it's proper place, they move it to shine the light on their own issues.

That is the reason Christianity is misunderstood in America. People like Pat Robertson, Billy Graham, James Dobson and others move the lampstand to their political pulpit and move the focus away from God. They are the best known leaders of the Christian Church as we know it in America and they are some of the biggest detractors from the way God commands us to live.

[Greatguardian]

I got really excited about the prospect of a thread like this but then I remembered that you're the guy who penned this gem:

and realized that engaging in any sort of rational discussion with you is impossible.

There was also this gem which just screamed No-True-Scotsman in a previous thread:

Just because someone calls themselves a Christian does not make them one. If you want to really find out if someone is a Christian, find out what they really believe. If that lines up with what the Bible says, then you likely have yourself a Christian. A Christian will also, generally, do everything out of love and respect, but as I mentioned earlier, we are not perfect, everyone has a bad day, some more than others.

It is very easy to discuss the virtues of something when you are able to arbitrarily decide what values to assign to it. Anyone does something bad? Not really a Christian. Anyone does something good? Christian whether they believe it or not (addressed in a different post). Make "Christian" a synonym for "Good" and you've cut off all avenues for discussion before they've started - especially when you choose to arbitrarily define both "Good" and "Bad" as things that cannot be judged by mortal man. Murderer? Still gets into Heaven. It's his loss for not being able to live an awesome non-murdering life. (from same post)

At this point, though, I don't have much sympathy for anyone who decides to feed the troll. At least this has its own thread now so it can stop derailing all the others.

[Sera]

I've always been confused at how the entire concept gets all mucked up.

Christianity is based on the idea that Jesus is the savior of humanity. Humanity is doomed to be imperfect -- that is something we are, and we cannot be otherwise. Jesus is harked as this "redeemer" figure, and on paper the Christian's job is to love his fellow man and do right by his OWN actions. This is all the new testament shit, which was supposed to usurp all the old testament "angry angsty god" bullshit.

How does that translate into trying to police others? I thought Christians were supposed to strive to be like Jesus himself is described to be: accepting, open, loving, unselfish, non-judgmental.

If it really were JUST all that, it wouldn't be so bad.

Christianity would be great if it weren't for all the fucking Christians. (Clerks!)

LOL at GG's Moosey quote above me: pretty much 0% of christians actually adhere to the bible and 100% of them claim to, so yeah

[Haiko]

Shouldn't banned him, this thread was about to become golden lol

[Eurell]

It doesnt even matter that a bunch of Christians are assholes. 100% of Christians could be the nicest people in the world, and it wouldn't change the fact that it makes absolutely 0 sense.

"God must exist because Idk what happened before the big bang" is not evidence of God existing. It's evidence of humans not yet knowing wtf.

[Greatguardian]

I've always been confused at how the entire concept gets all mucked up.

Christianity is based on the idea that Jesus is the savior of humanity. Humanity is doomed to be imperfect -- that is something we are, and we cannot be otherwise. Jesus is harked as this "redeemer" figure, and on paper the Christian's job is to love his fellow man and do right by his OWN actions. This is all the new testament shit, which was supposed to usurp all the old testament "angry angsty god" bullshit.

How does that translate into trying to police others? I thought Christians were supposed to strive to be like Jesus himself is described to be: accepting, open, loving, unselfish, non-judgmental.

If it really were JUST all that, it wouldn't be so bad.

Christianity would be great if it weren't for all the fucking Christians. (Clerks!)

This is a matter of Religion vs Organized Religion. One is based on Spirituality, the other on the accumulation of Political and Economic power. Plain and simple.

I have no problem with people who pick up a bible, read a dozen or so books, and decide that they want to live their life in a certain way. The important thing to me is that people find their own answers and make their own interpretations. This is Spirituality. The religion, in this case Christianity, is simply the form that Spirituality takes and the basis upon which people make their interpretations and draw their personal conclusions. Most rational people have no problem with this.

Organized religion makes interpretations and draws conclusions for you. It is about giving people the answers you want them to have in order for them to best service you. The interpretations being offered are meant to elicit certain behaviors and increase dependence on the Church. This is what people hate.

Discussions about Religion go in circles because people are unwilling to decide on the actual topic of their discussion. "Anti-religious" people want to talk about Organized Religion because it's fucked up. "Pro-religious" people want to talk about Spirituality because there's nothing wrong with it. People talk around each other for pages and pages because they each refuse to address the actual subject matter that the other is referring to - many going so far as to N-T-S it out of existence. The absolute worst is when people strain their mind and jump through mental hoops to try and justify the actions of Organized Religion. Don't bother. Spirituality is personal. It is something one does for themselves. Organized religion will never have any place in Spirituality.

[Nevex]

Until I started visiting this forum, I had no idea that Christianity was such a big deal and that so many people had a problem with it. In fact, I still think it's the religion with the highest degree of freedom, or at least it is in my case.

I live in Italy and I can't think of a single person who I know who isn't Catoholic, yet not once in my life have I personally experienced or seen any of the extremist episodes I often read on the General discussion board.
Religion here is meant as something to give you comfort in hard times and as an excuse to go visit relatives during holidays, that's it. Nobody is going to point you a gun if you break the rules and they're definitely not the first thing we think of whenever a life-changing decision is up.

Of course I'm not oblivious to things like pedophile priests and murders because "they were possessed by Satan", but based on my own experience I believe that Christianity itself isn't the problem, it's the people. No sane person would ever commit such crimes in the name of religion, because if it didn't exist they'd find some other excuse in its place.

[Greatguardian]

It's a big deal among Americans on the internet because most Americans who spend a lot of time on internet video game forums are Atheist in some form or fashion and were traumatized and mistreated by American Christians in some form or fashion because they were Atheist or nondenominational growing up.

Damn near everyone here will have a unique horror story, whether it's their own or from someone they know.