Random Christianity Discussion

[Demosthenes11]

Atheists are aware that they're a minority, which is why they want to others to believe that they're more numerous than they truly are. All minorities do that, like the "born this way" BS gay people have been spreading for years. That mentality is what makes them a minority.

wow....

[Greatguardian]

Kudos to both of you for your service to humanity. Neither of you has ever responded to me or anyone else who has suggested that your attitude would be different if someone made a thread about bigfoot, or transcendental meditation, or something more acceptably silly because it does not have the ring of holiness to protect its foolishness.

If you define religion as believing that the Earth was formed in 7 days and Noah took 2 of each animal onto an Ark before the world was flooded, then we'd have a comparison to make. Those things are patently false. I have no qualms with people using spirituality as a mold for investigating the world around them, however. The key word there is investigating.

If someone believing in bigfoot means going out and making topological, geological, and ecological studies on various forested areas in order to track it down then go on believing in bigfoot. Why would it bother me?

If someone is being a bag of dicks, don't shift blame off them by blaming it on their religious beliefs. Last I checked, human beings had a couple things called free will and personal responsibility. If there's a problem with someone, the problem is with them. You won't fix them by changing their belief structure, and they won't have to take responsibility for themselves if you insist on blaming their belief structure for their faults.

Is there a one thread where you guys don't end up sucking each other's cocks?

For example, you are a bag of dicks. It's not because you're an atheist or a theist. You're just a bag of dicks.

[shaggnix]

been a lurker so far, but here goes.

if you got sick, and not just with the sniffles, i mean like life threatening pneumonia, heart disease, etc. would you pray or go to a hospital? if your of the religious ilk, why do you think you got sick? is god testing you? are you supposed to be stronger for overcoming it? where does this fit into "Gods Plan"? surely he didn't let some stray bacteria threaten his plans for you. where does this leave medicine/hospitals? apparently these are tools we use to impose our own wishes on gods plan. "oh, but god gave us medicine!" no he didn't. medicine was discovered. first thru trial and error and accidental discovery. step by step, medicine evolved via scientific method, even if it was steeped in superstition at times.. even when illnesses were blamed on spirits and such, X substance always seemed to drive out spirits that manifested Y symptoms. inb4 "we know shagg, you don't have to explain all that". my point: yes, the traffic light example in the above pic is a little extreme, but the logic is valid. IF god exists (i agree it can't be proven or dis proven, the definition of god will simply change to keep him ineffable) he doesn't want to babysit humanity. he doesn't want you to pray if you break your arm, he wants you to use your head and put a splint on it and get your ass to the ER where they can use screws and a plate to keep the pieces together until your body heals it, in the correct position, so it still functions close to normal 2 years from now. the bumper stickers that say "Relax .... God is in control" make me want to ram my car into those ppl so i can ask them where god was when i saw their bumper sticker. it would have taken a random heart attack to stop 9-11, surely thats not beyond his power. and if we needed 9-11 as a lesson, surely there was a better way to teach us. you don't like me using 9-11 as an example? how about the black plague, or earquakes in ancient china that killed hundreds of thousands, or the recent nuclear crises in japan. it seems gods a kid with a magnifying glass waiting to see what we do next. or it could just be that sunlight, water, and kinetic energy, given billions of years, will eventually spawn a primitive single celled organism capable of surviving in a sterile environment and reproducing. honestly both are a little far fetched, but i'm much more incline to believe the latter. Or...... theres the evil genius theory which is as unprovable/undisprovable as classic christian god theory, but at times seems to make more sense after what we see in the world : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evil_demon

[Thunder]

Just what the fuck is the point of posting to bash someone? It's more annoying than anything religious I have ever seen

This goes for all discussion you will ever be engaged in: if you say something which is basically, "hey guys, look at this moron lol" you're talking to the side that already agrees with you.

You should be talking TO the people you disagree with, not to the people that already agree with you.

Edit^:

been a lurker so far, but here goes.

if you got sick, and not just with the sniffles, i mean like life threatening pneumonia, heart disease, etc. would you pray or go to a hospital? if your of the religious ilk, why do you think you got sick? is god testing you? are you supposed to be stronger for overcoming it? where does this fit into "Gods Plan"? surely he didn't let some stray bacteria threaten his plans for you. where does this leave medicine/hospitals? apparently these are tools we use to impose our own wishes on gods plan. "oh, but god gave us medicine!" no he didn't. medicine was discovered. first thru trial and error and accidental discovery. step by step, medicine evolved via scientific method, even if it was steeped in superstition at times.. even when illnesses were blamed on spirits and such, X substance always seemed to drive out spirits that manifested Y symptoms. inb4 "we know shagg, you don't have to explain all that". my point: yes, the traffic light example in the above pic is a little extreme, but the logic is valid. IF god exists (i agree it can't be proven or dis proven, the definition of god will simply change to keep him ineffable) he doesn't want to babysit humanity. he doesn't want you to pray if you break your arm, he wants you to use your head and put a splint on it and get your ass to the ER where they can use screws and a plate to keep the pieces together until your body heals it, in the correct position, so it still functions close to normal 2 years from now. the bumper stickers that say "Relax .... God is in control" make me want to ram my car into those ppl so i can ask them where god was when i saw their bumper sticker. it would have taken a random heart attack to stop 9-11, surely thats not beyond his power. and if we needed 9-11 as a lesson, surely there was a better way to teach us. you don't like me using 9-11 as an example? how about the black plague, or earquakes in ancient china that killed hundreds of thousands, or the recent nuclear crises in japan. it seems gods a kid with a magnifying glass waiting to see what we do next. or it could just be that sunlight, water, and kinetic energy, given billions of years, will eventually spawn a primitive single celled organism capable of surviving in a sterile environment and reproducing. honestly both are a little far fetched, but i'm much more incline to believe the latter. Or...... theres the evil genius theory which is as unprovable/undisprovable as classic christian god theory, but at times seems to make more sense after what we see in the world : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evil_demon

This is very unfair to people who believe in god or any religious in any capacity. Only the truly stupid believe in what you said, not the truly religious. You are making an incorrect connection between being stupid and being religious because some stupid religious nut may have said those things.

To hit the point home: A SINGLE, OR MANY, stupid religious people saying that stupid stuff DOES NOT MEAN that ALL religious people are stupid. It's a all squares are rectangles but not all rectangles are squares sort of thing. Except there do exist stupid people who are not religious.

[Sera]

lol at the "BS gay people" comment -- this is why we can't have nice things, guys.

[Siatdiat]

If you define religion as believing that the Earth was formed in 7 days and Noah took 2 of each animal onto an Ark before the world was flooded, then we'd have a comparison to make.

Did you miss when I posted the gallup poll that showed 40-47% of Americans have believed exactly that pretty consistently for the past 30 years?

@Sera:

No one seems to care about that comment, too busy letting the mean biggoted atheist have it.

[Jefe]

For example, you are a bag of dicks. It's not because you're an atheist or a theist. You're just a bag of dicks.

Correct. People are just fucking assholes.

[Greatguardian]

Did you miss when I posted the gallup poll that showed 40-47% of Americans have believed exactly that pretty consistently for the past 30 years?

@Sera:

No one seems to care about that comment, too busy letting the mean biggoted atheist have it.

I'm not touching the "Born that way" comment with a 10 foot pole, personally. Trolling or not, it's just not worth dealing with.

I saw the gallup poll. It's fairly sad. I don't blame religion for a lack of knowledge of basic scientific facts, though. To be clear, I don't support things like Creationism having any place in a science classroom. It's not science. If public schools get a world religion class, that would be where it belongs. However, saying "People are dumb and it's all religion's fault" is too easy on dumb people.

I'm not sure if it's just not clicking in general, but I'm being a lot meaner and a lot harsher towards ignorant people than you are, really. Some people are treating religion like a disease, where people would be high functioning and intelligent if only they were cured. I think that's a load. Ignorant people will be ignorant regardless of whether they believe in santa claus, the easter bunny, bigfoot, jesus, or cthulu. Likewise, intelligent people will be intelligent regardless of whether or not they believe in santa claus, the easter bunny, bigfoot, jesus, or cthulu. The important thing is not what someone believes, but what methodology they use to come to that belief.

Far more than 47% of Americans, and people in general, are scientifically illiterate. I would rather spend my energy fighting that ignorance and that illiteracy than waging war on people's spirituality.

[Demosthenes11]

Correct. People are just fucking assholes.

but you are against that sort of thing, right?

[Sera]

@Sera:

No one seems to care about that comment, too busy letting the mean biggoted atheist have it.

Heh, yeah I noticed that selective ignore

I'm not touching the "Born that way" comment with a 10 foot pole, personally. Trolling or not, it's just not worth dealing with.

it is just proof that there's no sense in even engaging -- people like that aren't capable of rational thought, so i'm not interested in engaging them in their delusions

[Jefe]

but you are against that sort of thing, right?

Am I?

[Yugl]

I thought his over-arching point was pretty clear.

>People accuse Kaylia of being a religion whiteknight
>Kaylia says he'll whiteknight anything if the people bashing it are doing so with faulty methodology
>Methodology used by half the posters in any religion thread is always fairly poor, as they are not scientists and this is the internet
>Argument is formed that Kaylia is not defending religion, but taking offense to shitty attacks on it.

To be perfectly honest I don't disagree with him, either. I've made the same point in other threads on this topic.

Thirding this general point.

[Siatdiat]

I have no qualms with people using spirituality as a mold for investigating the world around them, however. The key word there is investigating.

How exactly is spirituality used as a mold to investigate the world? Do you really think that approach garners any results of actual value? Please explain exactly how that works? If I explained to someone who takes astrology seriously that the sign they think they are isn't actually correct now, and that there really is no good reason to believe that particular stars have effects on peoples lives, would you say I am being a fucked up asshole? I'm just telling them the truth.

Believe it or not, despite what view you might derive about my personality on this forum, I don't go around looking for people with religious beliefs to challenge and bother. I tend to wait until its being pushed at me. Sort of like this thread, which was ever only a device for Moosey to try and evangelize to people. When I meet people and notice something in their personality that I find deficient, I don't tell them I think they are fucked up. Instead I recognize that they are just in some stage of their development, that they will not always be who they are that moment, and hopefully they will improve themselves over time as I try to do. I have never claimed to be a perfect human being. Of course, if religion comes up, and either they try to push it on me, or specifically ask me what I think, I respond with my actual thoughts on the subject. I don't see a reason to respect peoples golden calves.

I had a discussion with a friend of mine in the past about whether people change. I think people can change, but it depends on how open they are to doing so. If you accept a belief system that basically shuts down the need to question things and it actively discourages its followers from critically thinking about it, I think that is ultimately going to put you in a non-open position regarding personal growth and self improvement.

We need to do like Dennett proposes and not only teach religion in school, we need to teach ALL religions in school, in detail, including the parts that those specific religions followers may not like to let on about. I think if that happened we might hasten the end of religious belief even sooner.

[Thunder]

Thirding this general point.

Hard not to.

@Siatdiat, most americans are stupid and most of them are religious. I don't think we can make the conclusion that religious people are stupid, or that stupid people are religious because of that.

There are SO MANY athiests who bash religious incorrectly and, I think, are kind of stupid because of it. And on the other hand, there are plenty of intelligent religious people - people who would not let their religion stand in the way of scientific advancement or some other kind of decision where religion can be a detriment. It's perfectly fine to believe in a god if "he" isn't making you do bad things or avoid good things(like science)

The only case I can see being made is that for every believer and non-believer you have, the non-believer is more likely to be smarter than the believer. And maybe that's the point you're making - don't get offended if you are, I've only seen your last couple of posts.

Edit: whoah whoah, slow down with the teaching all religions in school. That's a wonderful idea and all, but that is not the logical step in trying to get rid of religion. Why not teach everything to a kid before he's 18? Because it's impossible. We have a hard enough time in the US teaching kids grammar and math. I'd rather work on teaching what we already teach more effectively than introduce all religions into school curriculums.

[Greatguardian]

How exactly is spirituality used as a mold to investigate the world? Do you really think that approach garners any results of actual value? Please explain exactly how that works? If I explained to someone who takes astrology seriously that the sign they think they are isn't actually correct now, and that there really is no good reason to believe that particular stars have effects on peoples lives, would you say I am being a fucked up asshole? I'm just telling them the truth.

Like I said. It's not important what you believe. It's important why you believe what you do. If you look at astrology and say "lol that's dum", of course that's ignorant. That's not any less ignorant than blindly accepting it. If I were to come across someone that takes astrology or something similar seriously and wants me to do so as well, the first thing out of my mouth would be "Why?". Not a patronizing "Why?", but an inquiry into their methodology. If their methodology is bad, then that's on them. If their methodology is solid, then good for them.

But if someone believes in astrology and doesn't want me to buy his zodiac cards or whatnot, then why do I care what they believe?

If an astronomer believes that God exists in the cosmos and spends his life collecting and analyzing mass quantities of data on stellar phenomena in the hopes of finding him, where's the harm? They are investigating the world around them. So what if they're doing it to get closer to God? And so what if he adds a lot of superfluous analysis to his findings because of it? Johannes Kepler is one of the most important figures in non-classical Astronomy, and damn near all his important findings were buried beneath metric tons of absolute nonsense.

[Demosthenes11]

The only case I can see being made is that for every believer and non-believer you have, the non-believer is more likely to be smarter than the believer.

and why is that?

[Demosthenes11]

Like I said. It's not important what you believe. It's important why you believe what you do. If you look at astrology and say "lol that's dum", of course that's ignorant. That's not any less ignorant than blindly accepting it. If I were to come across someone that takes astrology or something similar seriously and wants me to do so as well, the first thing out of my mouth would be "Why?". Not a patronizing "Why?", but an inquiry into their methodology. If their methodology is bad, then that's on them. If their methodology is solid, then good for them.

this is a ridiculous statement. Not all beliefs are equal. You don't need to be an astrology fanatic to know how much bullshit it is.

Their further investigation of something that is bogus is not furthering society. Instead of the x million people spending their time actually doing things that might better society (hi science research), they are wasting their time with bullshit. This is harmful. If everyone sat in their house and only counted the lint balls from their socks everyday, they aren't hurting anyone specifically. It's not a beneficial thing for society though.

People "serving" god is much the same to me. Instead of genuinely helping people or trying to get educated, etc, people pound on doors and talk about jesus christ, or become the heads of camps trying to convert gays. This is wasted human potential.

[Siatdiat]

@Siatdiat, most americans are stupid and most of them are religious. I don't think we can make the conclusion that religious people are stupid, or that stupid people are religious because of that.

To me this is kind of similar to the anecdote of the chicken or the egg. I definitely think that people who are either simply ignorant, or actually have a lower mental capacity, are more likely to experiment with religions and take them seriously. Some people incorrectly consider religion an aspect of philosophy, but there really is no connection. But I do generally think that religion is a symptom of stupidity or ignorance, in some cases possibly they are aspects of fear, or those who are using it as a con to make money. Still, I also think that generally intelligent people can approach religion non-critically because of their community, make a special zone for it to exist in since it doesn't line up with reality, and ultimately become purposefully ignorant to defend the unfounded belief system they have adopted, mostly due to the fear and guilt effect. The negativity of religion to me seems to be so high on my danger scale that I just can't ignore it or accept it, and my non-acceptance is directly proportional to how many things it claims to know, and how many of those things it claims cannot be questioned.

There are SO MANY athiests who bash religious incorrectly and, I think, are kind of stupid because of it. And on the other hand, there are plenty of intelligent religious people - people who would not let their religion stand in the way of scientific advancement or some other kind of decision where religion can be a detriment. It's perfectly fine to believe in a god if "he" isn't making you do bad things or avoid good things(like science).

Actually, on things like youtube, I think I criticize atheist comments as much as anything else I see that I find incorrect or based on poor reasoning. As for the second part here, I think the first part of my post covers why I would disagree with you here. It's a seed of ignorance that gets accepted, and then is defended over any other type of opinion or value judgement people can make.

The only case I can see being made is that for every believer and non-believer you have, the non-believer is more likely to be smarter than the believer. And maybe that's the point you're making - don't get offended if you are, I've only seen your last couple of posts.

I am definitely saying this, further I am making the claim that you cannot come to a conclusion of any real value by "experimenting" with religions.

[Greatguardian]

this is a ridiculous statement. Not all beliefs are equal. You don't need to be an astrology fanatic to know how much bullshit it is.

Their further investigation of something that is bogus is not furthering society. Instead of the x million people spending their time actually doing things that might better society (hi science research), they are wasting their time with bullshit. This is harmful. If everyone sat in their house and only counted the lint balls from their socks everyday, they aren't hurting anyone specifically. It's not a beneficial thing for society though.

People "serving" god is much the same to me. Instead of genuinely helping people or trying to get educated, etc, people pound on doors and talk about jesus christ, or become the heads of camps trying to convert gays. This is wasted human potential.

Do you think it's possible for a scientifically literate person using a solid methodology to believe in astrology?

If no, it's a moot point.

If yes, I'd be damned interested in it. Wouldn't you?

Increase science literacy and combat ignorance first. If people still believe in astrology after that, I'd be genuinely fascinated to know why or how. If not, oh well - it got weeded out.

[Dotsudoku]

I'm not entirely sure if this counts as a derail or not, but I'll ask regardless: as a general request of GG, Kaylia, and Yugl, could any of you elaborate a bit more upon the discussion of how the axioms of religious, logical, and scientific belief are all equally, arbitrarily formed? This was mentioned very briefly in a thread not too long ago, and was of great interest to me. It seems relevant enough for this thread.