Random Christianity Discussion

[pohibaba]

With that said, I really would like to attempt to get on with discussing people's thoughts, disagreements, concerns, or any comments on Christianity, in the most rational way.

These are the best questions in the thread, could you answer them for me please?

Hitchens was fond of this point: For the 200,000 years or so humans have been around, they've lived in fear, death, warfare...nasty, brutish, ugly, bitter little lives that ended in 20-25 years, usually from their teeth or appendix, poorly evolved as they are. Worshiping pagan gods, and going to hell for it without ever knowing the "truth". If you are a christian, you are required to believe that for 198,000 years, heaven watched all this with complete indifference. And then, 2000 years ago or so decided, oh boy, time to intervene. The best way to do this will be to have a human sacrifice in primitive palestine. We won't appear to the Chinese, who can already read and write. This is a great plan.

There is no evidence that prayer has any effect on the outcome of events. Believers of any religion are just as affected by war, disease, natural disaster, etc, as any other group.

An omniscient being supposedly begat Jesus, yet never in any of his preaching did he bother to mention to his flock to wash their hands before eating, and to shit away from their water supplies. Think of all the people he could have saved that way--the millions that died of the black death alone.

etc etc ad infinitum.

[Yugl]

Well, do you specifically police my posts only, or can I expect to see you doing this. For everyone from now on?

He was doing that well before you came along. You just notice it now since the posts directed at you make you emotional.

[Moosey]

It has less to do with the philosophy presented and more to do with the fact that you jumped in to satirize someone before they even gave their answer.

Moosey is plenty capable of making a fool of himself without you trying to help the process along and making a fool of yourself in the process. It has something to do with that "Listening" thing I mentioned earlier.

Kerb had the right idea. He asked a question that Moosey was free to respond to. You'd have done a lot better to have waited all of 20 minutes before weighing in.

Edit: And for clarity, after listening to what Moosey had to say I'm content to say that I think his reasoning is junk. The difference is I waited for him to tell me what he believed instead of trying to tell him myself.

Care to explain your reasoning as to why you think mine is junk?

Thank you.


Oh come on, they're all snake-oil peddlers.
You have to realize that the guys on late night infomercial TV who are selling "miraculous God Powered Get Out of Debt Holy Water" don't lend too much credibility to the "most" part of that statement. All of the televangelist/faith healer folks are always asking for you to dig WAY SUPER DEEP IN YO BLESSED POCKETS to get their help. Maybe this is just MY perception, but didn't the bible claim that Jesus did all that shit for free? Just sayin'. It makes the whole thing look like some sort of trashy joke.

I say most because I don't know for sure that all of them are, but in my experience, the vast majority are. Especially the "charismatic" or "faith healers" or pentecostal churches. I went to a pentecostal church once, they had a great choir, but after the music was done it got scary. I am very distrustful of anything on TV(news, "reality tv", etc..), but when it comes to something I myself represent, I am even more critical of it.


God does offer salvation for the low, low price of FREE! That's what is meant in reference to "saved by Grace". No one can earn it. It's a gift out of love.

These so-called televangelists ask for donations or for you to buy whatever book/other product they endorse because you regularly watch their show or their message has helped you or something, and that's fine. Though, I can't imagine any of these things truly helping anyone seeing as how they are incredibly skewed to one extreme or the other, seriously lacking Biblical Truths, and generally not well representative of the Bible at all.

[nerdfromthehood]

You deny God's offering of bacon and thus you do not deserve to live.

Repent, consume the holy swine and perhaps you can be forgiven.

Might be throwing myself under the bus here but I grew up Muslim. Swine was forbidden. I have never ate a piece of ham or bacon(pork, I have ate turkey) in my life.

[Kaylia]

I would trade the virgins for bacon.

[ronin sparthos]

Might be throwing myself under the bus here but I grew up Muslim. Swine was forbidden. I have never ate a piece of ham or bacon(pork, I have ate turkey) in my life.

Anything outside the mainstream tends to set off hardcore Christian fundies so it's no surprise even your diet would be under scrutiny. Stuff like vegetarianism, interracial marriage or caring about the environment makes you a non-conformist and if there is one thing fundies hate it's people who refuse to conform.

[Demosthenes11]

These are the best questions in the thread, could you answer them for me please?

simple: the earth is only 6k years old.

checkmate atheists.

[kuronosan]

Ugh. Not one of these discussions.

I think it was best said a few posts back regarding Christopher Hitchens.

If Christianity was such a large part of the world and its evolution, why were all the terrible things allowed to happen until Abraham/Isaac? People want you to believe the world is only 6000 or so years old and that Adam/Eve were the first humans.

If Adam/Eve were the first, then it's only through incest that they could have produced the rest of the human beings on the planet. If you've read anything in the bible that deals with incest, specifically the allegory of Lot and his daughters (who fuck uncontrollably in an effort to reproduce), you would see so many contradictions and laughable events that the logic in your brain would short circuit.

Really what you should take away from stories in the bible is that human beings have consistently tried to control each other by rejecting the idea that knowledge is beneficial and attempting to cock-block people from becoming educated, enlightened citizens that love and cherish one another.

Even fucking Jesus Christ himself advocated true unconditional love and the Gospels display this up until he died - afterwards, people go right back to saying "Ah yes but uh remember that homosexuality is disgusting and you go to hell and don't love those people or those people".

It's blatant hypocrisy and fucking hilarious that people tout Jesus as the be-all-end-all son of God every which way and where and yet ignore his most basic teachings (apparently recorded verbatim in the Gospel, written years after his death) of tolerance and understanding.

Finally, if you can't have a serious discussion about religion without being prepared to be disagreed with, you need to just shut the fuck up. I was raised Catholic myself, briefly, before my parents divorced, and then Protestant, and finally returning briefly to Catholicism before giving up altogether. Religion itself is just a means to an end and once you realize this and free yourself you begin to see that faith is gradual and depends largely on whether it favors you or not.

These days people blindly have faith that there's a plan and that they will make it into heaven and be all happy because that is what keeps them from accepting that when they die they might just cease to exist entirely. I used to argue with people on BG about that all the time. The truth is, we don't know what happens when we die. If we cease to exist, I think I would rather take much more comfort in that I lived my life completely on my own terms and was as good as I could be to other people while staying true to myself. I'd rather not live blindly worshipping someone only to find out it was all a lie and pretending to have some measure of comfort in the end.

Lastly you need to keep in mind that religion has caused more problems due to 'faith' and 'devotion' than logic and reason ever have. As much as retarded graphs and CHECKMATE, ATHIESTS would have us believing otherwise, people have killed in the name of faith far more than in the name of "getting along and treating each other right".

Respecting the beliefs of others will only take you as far as the disagreement in most people, and those of the religious disposition are far more likely to stomp their feet and take arms when it happens to them.

[Kerberoz]

God does offer salvation for the low, low price of FREE! That's what is meant in reference to "saved by Grace". No one can earn it. It's a gift out of love.

How did you come to this conclusion? What is your reasoning for believing so? I'm assuming it's not simply faith or you wouldn't be asking for a discussion.

Spoiler: show

[Kaelan?]

While I don't necessarily agree on the fact that he set-up a bunch of people in a lie, I agree with his idea that most of the televangelist/faith healer dudes like that are a load of crap. I do believe there are people out there in the world with that ability, but they aren't parading around on stage in fancy suits smacking people in the head and shouting at people like that.

You definitely got the first part right. God is always doing things in his own "time", but God's perspective of "time" is not like our own, as he is outside of "time". As for not having enough faith? You either have it or do don't. There is no middle ground where faith is concerned, so "not enough" doesn't really apply here.

If you liked Miracles For Sale, you might want to also watch Messiah, it directly addresses people with "abilities". It's not that hard to fake supernatural abilities with the right training and mindset. Only a part of the episode is on religion, but it addresses exactly what you're talking about:



Doesn't completely prove everyone doing this is full of shit, but to quote James Randi when he publicly debunked Uri Geller: "Maybe these people do bend spoons with some kind of power, but if they do, they're certainly doing it the hard way".

How did you come to this conclusion? What is your reasoning for believing so? I'm assuming it's not simply faith or you wouldn't be asking for a discussion.

I'm assuming by salvation he means after you're dead, making the pictures irrelevant to the point he was making

[Kuya]

Has the thread reached the 'arguments over the definition of atheist and agnostic' stage yet?

[Greatguardian]

Has the thread reached the 'arguments over the definition of atheist and agnostic' stage yet?

Killed with fire a few pages back.

[Kuya]

Ah, so it must be in its last throes of life.

[Greatguardian]

Ah, so it must be in its last throes of life.

OP is back so pretty much

[Moosey]

Ugh. Not one of these discussions.

I think it was best said a few posts back regarding Christopher Hitchens.

If Christianity was such a large part of the world and its evolution, why were all the terrible things allowed to happen until Abraham/Isaac? People want you to believe the world is only 6000 or so years old and that Adam/Eve were the first humans.


If Adam/Eve were the first, then it's only through incest that they could have produced the rest of the human beings on the planet. If you've read anything in the bible that deals with incest, specifically the allegory of Lot and his daughters (who fuck uncontrollably in an effort to reproduce), you would see so many contradictions and laughable events that the logic in your brain would short circuit.

Well, being the first of your species kind of leads to incest as a necessity, doesn't it? Incest didn't become outlawed until the Law was given through Moses, many, many years later. As far as Lot is concerned, the daughters got him very drunk on multiple occasions and forcibly had sex with him, the Bible describes him as being unaware as to what was going on. If you take the time to read things with a rational, open-mindedness, the logic in your brain has a chance to get past ignorant belligerence to potentially understand what you're reading.

Really what you should take away from stories in the bible is that human beings have consistently tried to control each other by rejecting the idea that knowledge is beneficial and attempting to cock-block people from becoming educated, enlightened citizens that love and cherish one another.

Even fucking Jesus Christ himself advocated true unconditional love and the Gospels display this up until he died - afterwards, people go right back to saying "Ah yes but uh remember that homosexuality is disgusting and you go to hell and don't love those people or those people".

Can you give some examples of Bible verse that show where it rejects knowledge and education and loving one another(NT only for the last one, if you don't understand why, I can explain it to you)?

And He answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’ “and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh?’” (Matthew 19:4.)

Jesus did advocate unconditional love, but he also condemned homosexuality. He fully endorsed the Law of Moses, which condemns homosexuality. The rest of the NT is inspired by the Holy Spirit, which does not speak on His own authority, but that of Jesus'.

So it is pretty clear that Jesus did not support homosexuality, but neither He nor any of the rest of the NT writers endorse hating homosexuals or condemning them.

"But I say, love your enemies!t Pray for those who persecute you!" Matthew 5:44

Which IS endorsed all through the NT.

It's blatant hypocrisy and fucking hilarious that people tout Jesus as the be-all-end-all son of God every which way and where and yet ignore his most basic teachings (apparently recorded verbatim in the Gospel, written years after his death) of tolerance and understanding.

Jesus did come to teach tolerance and understanding, but also to not accept and live by the standards of a broken world. I agree that there are many hypocrites in the world and unfortunately a visible and vocal group of them call themselves Christians, but I can tell you that these people are very likely not Christians. People on the outside may think that because they don't know better, the people themselves might think it as well because they are blinded by pride and try to justify their actions with self-righteousness by cherry picking the Bible. If you go to the Bible and read it, it clearly shows that a true Christian will bear good fruit, their actions and thoughts will be similar to those of the Bible. Don't try to pull the "no-true-scotman" thing here again though, it clearly doesn't apply, as I explained in another post.

Finally, if you can't have a serious discussion about religion without being prepared to be disagreed with, you need to just shut the fuck up. I was raised Catholic myself, briefly, before my parents divorced, and then Protestant, and finally returning briefly to Catholicism before giving up altogether. Religion itself is just a means to an end and once you realize this and free yourself you begin to see that faith is gradual and depends largely on whether it favors you or not.

What made you give it up? I agree that religion can be very restrictive and limiting, which is why I do not support religion.

These days people blindly have faith that there's a plan and that they will make it into heaven and be all happy because that is what keeps them from accepting that when they die they might just cease to exist entirely. I used to argue with people on BG about that all the time. The truth is, we don't know what happens when we die. If we cease to exist, I think I would rather take much more comfort in that I lived my life completely on my own terms and was as good as I could be to other people while staying true to myself. I'd rather not live blindly worshipping someone only to find out it was all a lie and pretending to have some measure of comfort in the end.

You assume that so many people that have faith have it blindly, do you talk to large amounts of said people to know if they are blindly following their faith or not? It's obvious that there are a large amount of those kinds of people, but I offer that there are also many who do not follow blindly, but do ask questions, and do research, and use their intellect to make informed decisions, and that's how it should be, and the Bible even commands it.

Why are you so satisfied with ceasing to exist? We do have an idea of what happens when we die. The Bible tells us that we are either going to spend eternity in Heaven or Hell. What good is gaining the whole world if you are only going to lose your life in the end? If nothing happened after we died, why then have humans been so concerned with death for THOUSANDS of years? Why are we all trying to conquer it?

People lump Christianity in with all the other faiths of the world when it's so fundamentally different, and it makes people who are looking at it on the surface think it's something it isn't. Christianity is not just about getting to Heaven or a "comfort in the idea of death", it's about setting the order of things right. Man put himself above God in his own mind and became separated from God because of it. Accepting Jesus into your life is putting the order of things back into place when you realize that you do not live your life on your own terms.

Lastly you need to keep in mind that religion has caused more problems due to 'faith' and 'devotion' than logic and reason ever have. As much as retarded graphs and CHECKMATE, ATHIESTS would have us believing otherwise, people have killed in the name of faith far more than in the name of "getting along and treating each other right".

Respecting the beliefs of others will only take you as far as the disagreement in most people, and those of the religious disposition are far more likely to stomp their feet and take arms when it happens to them.

Where is your evidence that "faith" has caused more problems than non-faith related causes?

How did you come to this conclusion? What is your reasoning for believing so? I'm assuming it's not simply faith or you wouldn't be asking for a discussion.

Spoiler: show

I came to this conclusion because it says it pretty plainly in the Bible. How else would I know God gave me the gift of salvation out of love?

[Greatguardian]

Care to explain your reasoning as to why you think mine is junk?

I came to this conclusion because it says it pretty plainly in the Bible.

.

[Demosthenes11]

show me where jesus condemned gays

[Moosey]

.

If you understood the question, that is the only possible answer. It's not like I pulled that belief out of thin air.

show me where jesus condemned gays

I gave several examples, read them.

[Demosthenes11]

I gave several examples, read them.

You gave one example where it was said that god made a man and a woman and they have sex.

[Moosey]

You gave one example where it was said that god made a man and a woman and they have sex.

Jesus did advocate unconditional love, but he also condemned homosexuality. He fully endorsed the Law of Moses, which condemns homosexuality. The rest of the NT is inspired by the Holy Spirit, which does not speak on His own authority, but that of Jesus'.

So it is pretty clear that Jesus did not support homosexuality, but neither He nor any of the rest of the NT writers endorse hating homosexuals or condemning them.

Which IS endorsed all through the NT.

If you don't understand what that means I'll break it down for you. Jesus supports the Laws of the Old Testament, which include condemning homosexuality.

The New Testament, like the OT, is the inspired Word of God. The way it is inspired is through the Holy Spirit which is inside of the writers. The Holy Spirit is essentially a conduit which Jesus' Words are spoken through. Therefore, Jesus, through the Holy Spirit, through Man, wrote the Bible.

Can you understand that?