Up Your Gas!

[Lucavi]

I lived in Japan for three years. A very large majority of the population uses trains, and their train system is actually pretty awesome. The neighborhoods there are much smaller, roads are smaller, everything really is smaller and rather that be spread out most things like department stores, malls, and shopping centers are stacked up.

If I wanted to catch the bullet train to Osaka, it was just over 100 bucks, and considering Japan has higher gas prices, not only was that cheaper than driving but it was also much quicker and more comfortable. Today their mass transit is one of the things I miss most about that country.

It may be unfair in some ways to compare mass transit in a smaller country like that to any much larger country, but I still have to wonder why it isn't possible to at least approach the level of utility that they have.

I get what you're saying, but honestly, its pretty much too late now. What are we gonna do, blow up every major city and start over? You've got cities like Boston and Baltimore that have been narrow clusterfucks for centuries, because when they were designed, nobody had a goddamn car.

[Siatdiat]

I get what you're saying, but honestly, its pretty much too late now. What are we gonna do, blow up every major city and start over? You've got cities like Boston and Baltimore that have been narrow clusterfucks for centuries, because when they were designed, nobody had a goddamn car.

What do you mean by narrow clusterfucks? Japan is narrow clusterfuck from shore to shore.

[MaachaQ]

My husband had to get me a car about a week ago, since now in Chuncheon there isn't as much public transit as back in Seoul and I need to drive the kids to and from school every day. Gas here is 2,000 - 2300 won per liter, which would translate to $7 a gallon or so. We bought a tiny car, a Daewoo Matiz, and plan to try to get a hybrid or EV in a few years once they are more available and we have some money saved up. My husband commutes back to Seoul every day; by bus it's ~1hour, by normal train it's ~2.5 hours, by high speed train it's ~1 hour. All 3 are much cheaper than paying for the gas to drive there, especially since there's toll roads much of the way.

Seoul has great public transit, and they are constantly adding more to it. US cities should be able to do much better than they have been, and there should be no reason that it is so prohibitively expensive to build. If gas prices and vehicle taxes were as high in the US as they are here, I'm sure there would be (or at least should be) more than enough demand in major cities to pay for similar train systems as Japan and Korea have. I hate driving in Seoul, and I'm sure I'd hate driving in any other big city. Public transit is great, and I miss it terribly T.T

[Sepukku]

US cities should be able to do much better than they have been, and there should be no reason that it is so prohibitively expensive to build. If gas prices and vehicle taxes were as high in the US as they are here, I'm sure there would be (or at least should be) more than enough demand in major cities to pay for similar train systems as Japan and Korea have.

Yeah... you would think so... you would think a lot of good things about America that turn out to be not true... :/

Like I said, 2 mile addition to the non-highspeed subway train system we have in Pittsburgh just cost a little over $500 million US dollars (half a billion for 2 miles) and was 2 years behind construction schedule. And there's this new fad movement in America where people want as close to 0 taxes as possible and as close to 0 government as possible, so people wouldn't want tax dollars subsidizing massive multi-billion dollar rail projects in each of the 100-150 major population cities.

[Jaybar]

I think that if living conditions continue on the path they have been going, the only thing government would really need to do is lift subsidies for living at the absolute fringes of cities (save for rural farming) and think about remodeling our land tax code to one that is similar to Henry George's.

We could also start to renovate (not destroy/construct) our massive highway system to incorporate innovative mass transit, like Enrique Peñalosa's Bogotá. I don't think America can ethically or economically go the route of Haussmann or Hadrian, so it will just have to be a slow process. If we just tell people the numbers for investing in mass transit then they would be conflicted in ideology (tax money spent on mass transit but also spent on increased long-term employment). But who am I kidding, after years of involving myself in American politics I've started to lose all hope. I suppose the famous quote suits our nation well, "You can always count on the Americans to do the right thing, after they have tried everything else."

[Lucavi]

What do you mean by narrow clusterfucks? Japan is narrow clusterfuck from shore to shore.

Japan rebuilt quite a few of their cities (think Hiroshima). I don't know very many U.S. cities that were completely rebuilt from the ground up within the last, say, 100 years.

I don't live in a city, but the friends I have in cities either bike to work or use mass transit, and save their cars for the weekends. If they work outside of the city, they drive to it. There's no way you could set up some sort of mass-transit system for rural areas, though, and expect people to use it regularly if they have a car. Way too much distance between areas, way too many individual stops, and way too many goddamn deer to worry about hitting.

[Yugl]

I lived in Japan for three years. A very large majority of the population uses trains, and their train system is actually pretty awesome. The neighborhoods there are much smaller, roads are smaller, everything really is smaller and rather that be spread out most things like department stores, malls, and shopping centers are stacked up.

If I wanted to catch the bullet train to Osaka, it was just over 100 bucks, and considering Japan has higher gas prices, not only was that cheaper than driving but it was also much quicker and more comfortable. Today their mass transit is one of the things I miss most about that country.

It may be unfair in some ways to compare mass transit in a smaller country like that to any much larger country, but I still have to wonder why it isn't possible to at least approach the level of utility that they have.

Possible, but would take more work, if not because of preceding condition, because the US is simply larger. I recall people making a huge fuss over going to X region of Japan, but when you think about it, the distance generally isn't that great. For comparative distance, you would be looking at a transportation system from Southern California to Washington state. For comparative utility, you would need much more.

[Ksandra]

Just to give people some perspective on the cost of putting a mass-transit system into the US, there is a current plan to place a high-speed rail from N. Cali to S. Cali that should be happening soon:

http://www.sacbee.com/2012/03/23/435...-ready-to.html

However, the new price tag, around $100 billion, was several times more than what voters said it would cost when they approved a $9.95 billion bond issue, and was catnip for the project's opponents, an eclectic lot that includes San Joaquin Valley farmers, residents of the tony San Francisco Peninsula and Republican conservatives.

I'm sure they'll try and bring down the cost, but even the initial $9.9 billion price tag is a lot of fucking money, and that's for just 1 railway. Albeit a huge one, but still, to try and put those all across the country I would say at this point is economically impossible for the US.

[Siatdiat]

Japan rebuilt quite a few of their cities (think Hiroshima). I don't know very many U.S. cities that were completely rebuilt from the ground up within the last, say, 100 years.

Yeah I lived an hour away from Hiroshima. I have been all over mainland Japan and Okinawa. Many of the roads, although built in the last fifty years, are built upon much older throughways.

[Yugl]

Ya, but we paid for their demolition project.

[Siatdiat]

Possible, but would take more work, if not because of preceding condition, because the US is simply larger. I recall people making a huge fuss over going to X region of Japan, but when you think about it, the distance generally isn't that great. For comparative distance, you would be looking at a transportation system from Southern California to Washington state. For comparative utility, you would need much more.

Of course these is the huge difference in size. I would just hope that we could start with the more dense population areas and spread out over time from that. There seems to be the general idea out there that developing better mass transit means we need to jump in and finish it overnight.

[Jaybar]

To elaborate on what I said previously, this seems to be a viable solution to costly mass transit budgets (i.e. not a light-rail) - TransMilenio

The cost for the TransMilenio was $5.9M/km whereas the California High-Speed Rail seems to be estimated at ~$77.0M/km*.

*Estimated cost is ~$100B for 1300km proposed

[Omniyoji]

Just to give people some perspective on the cost of putting a mass-transit system into the US, there is a current plan to place a high-speed rail from N. Cali to S. Cali that should be happening soon:

http://www.sacbee.com/2012/03/23/435...-ready-to.html




I'm sure they'll try and bring down the cost, but even the initial $9.9 billion price tag is a lot of fucking money, and that's for just 1 railway. Albeit a huge one, but still, to try and put those all across the country I would say at this point is economically impossible for the US.

I remember when this was on the ballot. Still can't believe til this day it passed. WTF were people thinking. As much as I love trains (boy do I love trains) don't think it's a good idea. That money could've been put to better use.

[Headspace]

Just eclipsed $4 down here. A little surprised it took that long based on how many retired rich assholes live here, but still pissed.

[Darus Grey]

I say let it keep going up, we'll finally see an end to SUVs, and I'd pay a lot more for that.

[Salodin]

I say let it keep going up, we'll finally see an end to SUVs, and I'd pay a lot more for that.

I can deal with SUVs...making my ass even more broke in the process is a big no thanks!

[dejet]

lol end to SUVs ya right.

I own a 1999 car thing gets like 19mpg average for me(highway/local driving) and it runs me like 400 a month in gas. Could I buy a new car? hell ya, but not blowing no 20g's+ collision insurance. Fuck that shit saving a hell of a lot more money being a gas hog then adding another $500+ a month bill(and I still need like $200 in gas a month even if I got a car that got 40MPG average around here)

let it go up wont make me buy a new car that's better for the world till the price/month of owning a new car is less then a used car(never)

[Jaybar]

Most people won't buy a new car if the gas keeps going up...they will find alternatives or means to reduce their driving habits. Shit it's almost like carpooling is taboo now.

[Darus Grey]

Get used to it is all anyone can say. Demand better mass transit and more efficient vehicles like the rest of the world with $10/gal gas does.

@dejet vehicles don't last forever.

[dejet]

Ill car pool to work(if I could), that wont do anything to me. I hold two jobs and still go to school so ya ~_~ dont better mass transit wont help me one bit. One job to the next in less then 1hour mass transit even with a bullet train would do me zero good(everyone else ok maybe)

As for me my good old used car is my best friend and even at $10/gal it be just fine with me. Still only ~500 a month on gas vs 750+ for a new car. I would be far more angry at home heating going up then my car!

Fast edit form my phone to make it look better!