Random Fail: First World Problems

[thetruepandagod]

I fail to see why the view of rape as opposed to murder is a much more heated debate on this website. When murders are mentioned on this website the reactions range from "dont care" to either flat out calling the current suspect a murderer without proof or giving him the benefit of the doubt due to lack of proof. Proof is harder to come by in rape cases especially when a lot of the people on this website can't even decide what rape is(ex: archi viewing all drunk sex as rape by default) Do you just want everyone single person that claims rape to be totally absolved of falsehood because of the sensitive nature of it? or what?

[FNH]

That is a truer comparison in terms of the accusation part, but there's a pretty big difference between an act against someone's stuff and an act against a person. I don't know if it's just the way many men perceive sex in general or what (really trying not to generalize here, note I said "many"), like rape is apparently not that big a deal, but it's terrifying, it's damaging, it's just nothing anyone wants to suffer through and living that is a traumatic experience that won't easily go away. Many (again many) women actively fear it happening every day. Getting your tires slashed isn't quite comparable.

Probably because the experience/fear isn't shared. I can't speak for every male but the thought of being raped doesn't enter my mind, like really ever. I'm probably more statistically likely to get raped than struck by lightning but lighting is miles ahead of rape in my fear book. Unless prison enters the equation. I think that is where the disconnect happens and men seem to "not care".

[BaneTheBrawler]

RE: Aks: Is it, though? We aren't the cops. We aren't deciding their fate. We're a bunch of fucking video game nerds. We're a social group. If one of your friends walks up to you and says their girlfriend got raped, you don't fucking interrogate them. Christ.




Edit: I'll tell you why I'm heated. THIS ISN'T ABSTRACT. This is one of our users. One of us.

[Cream Soda]

That is a truer comparison in terms of the accusation part, but there's a pretty big difference between an act against someone's stuff and an act against a person. I don't know if it's just the way many men perceive sex in general or what (really trying not to generalize here, note I said "many"), like rape is apparently not that big a deal, but it's terrifying, it's damaging, it's just nothing anyone wants to suffer through and living that is a traumatic experience that won't easily go away. Many (again many) women actively fear it happening every day. Getting your tires slashed isn't quite comparable.

How I view sex/rape has nothing to do with my post there. It simply was pointing out that if he were to make such a comparison, he could have done a better job. It was just the accusation part. Not particularly rape. I would have made the same post to any victim based crime.

In the same sense, if a cop sees me walking on the side of the road like this


and I tell him that my chain popped off and I fell off my bike, he's going to ask a lot less questions than if I said yea this person just hit me and drove off.

Rape is fucking terrible. I'm not saying or implying that it's any less serious than it is. That post was 100% about Bane's comparison, which wasn't accurate in any way shape or form. Even if you want to call mine inaccurate, it was just an example of one that was more accurate than his

Edit: and not even just the cops, anyone in general. When I get hit, I get bombared with "Were you on the sidewalk" (when I'm legally allowed on the road). "You must have run a red light" (when I got hit nowhere near a taffic light) "Stop running stop signs" (when nothing of the sort was involved in the accident) "You must have swerved out into the road" etc.

[FNH]

Edit: I'll tell you why I'm heated. THIS ISN'T ABSTRACT. This is one of our users. One of us.

Not sure what started the whole thing since some posts were redacted, but it would depend on peoples views on other users. Some people subscribe to the shared motorway view: Just other cars passing by, no connection outside of using the same asphalt.

[Aksannyi]

I fail to see why the view of rape as opposed to murder is a much more heated debate on this website. When murders are mentioned on this website the reactions range from "dont care" to either flat out calling the current suspect a murderer without proof or giving him the benefit of the doubt due to lack of proof. Proof is harder to come by in rape cases especially when a lot of the people on this website can't even decide what rape is(ex: archi viewing all drunk sex as rape by default) Do you just want everyone single person that claims rape to be totally absolved of falsehood because of the sensitive nature of it? or what?

First, murder is different - if you're murdered, you don't have to live with that trauma. Attempted murder on the other hand, well, that's another story, but also, semantics, I'm not going to argue that here.

As far as the falsehood thing, I don't think it's right to, especially in the heat of the moment, start interrogating or placing blame. The fact that this incident allegedly happened one night and she came forward the next day (if what I remember from hey's post is correct) means that the incident was still very raw, the wound was still very much open, and jumping down any victim's throat like that and accusing someone of "drama" (sorry y'all that word got me heated as fuck) is not helping anything.

Just have empathy. Try to help. Try to make the person feel more comfortable. Offer to take her to the police, offer to take care of anything she might need assistance with. Offer to just listen. Leave the interrogation to the cops, that's their job. And for god's sake, put yourself in that person's shoes. If you'd just gotten raped - imagine the humiliation, the shame, the devastation, the invalidation, etc., you must be feeling, and even worse, that your friends won't even try to empathize with you? You would not want that - you'd want them to try to be helpful, not accuse you of stirring up drama. Sound like fucking shitty friends honestly. And if you truly believe that the person (assuming you know them) is making it up or just trying to stir up some shit then ... maybe not say that to that person? Because the only people who know what happened are the victim and the alleged rapist. So why not just leave it alone if you think it's all bullshit instead of possibly making someone who just got raped feel like they're to blame or like they're doing something wrong by coming forward?

Granted this is BG and we are not friends, but I'm not going to sit there and try to vilify anyone. If someone tells me they've been raped, I don't care who they are, I'm going to try to empathize. Am I going to feel a little wronged if it turns out to be false? Maybe, but I'd rather give a victim who is obviously struggling to come forward the benefit of the doubt, because doing what has happened in this thread discourages people from coming forward, which discourages better discourse on the subject with more effective investigations, which might encourage a fundamental shift in the way we handle rape in this country (and throughout the world).

Right now, rape is condoned more often than it's not. That's a radical statement, I know. But the way victims are treated after the fact, the fact that people still believe that clothing, arousal, prior sexual history, or any other factors imply consent, the fact that people will claim a girl "ruined his promising future" (and not that he did it himself by raping - even guys who are caught on film doing it), the fact that so many rapists not only go free but rape repeatedly ... yes, rape is often condoned, and it's really gross.

[Blubbartron]

Is it, though? We aren't the cops. We aren't deciding their fate. We're a bunch of fucking video game nerds. We're a social group. If one of your friends walks up to you and says their girlfriend got raped, you don't fucking interrogate them. Christ.


Edit: I'll tell you why I'm heated. THIS ISN'T ABSTRACT. This is one of our users. One of us.

Technically it's a friend of one our users. Unless hey's girlfriend is also a user, which is possible, though doubtful.

Regardless, the ability to be emotionally detached is useful. Here's the way I see it - if a person I know tells me they were raped (and a few have), they get my full sympathy and support for anything they need, right up until what they need is for me to vilify a person I don't know and have no way of knowing whether they're really an evil fuck or not. I will do anything I can to bring positive change into a person's life, but I won't bring negative change without evidence that they actually deserve it. That negative change can be as little as accepting what basically amounts to a rumor as verified truth, and allowing it to spread unimpeded. In my opinion, it's unethical to do that.

[Xantavia]

Happy Birthday to Me.

[thetruepandagod]

Edit: and not even just the cops, anyone in general. When I get hit, I get bombared with "Were you on the sidewalk" (when I'm legally allowed on the road). "You must have run a red light" (when I got hit nowhere near a taffic light) "Stop running stop signs" (when nothing of the sort was involved in the accident) "You must have swerved out into the road" etc.

Not gonna lie, when i heard my friend got hit by a car and ended up in the hospital the first question i asked after finding out he wasn't about to die "was he on the sidewalk or in the road" At least for me the gut reaction in situations like that is to establish what happened and who was at fault, and what could have been done differently by the victim to have avoided this if even just to help myself to avoid a similar fate in the future. I later found out he was skateboarding across the street while the cars had a green light.

[BaneTheBrawler]

Cream, that is entirely beside the point. I was not comparing a rape to a flat tire, I was comparing the responses in this thread (and IRL) to another, similarly shitty response. You (an average citizen) could keep on driving (not post) but no, you stop, take time out of your day... to make that person feel even shittier and not lift a finger to help.

And yes, FNH, clearly that is the case. Except no one stops to berate someone with a flat tire.

Blubb, no one asked you to do that. It's not someone we know, there we no names attached, this forum has absolutely no impact on their lives.

Happy birthday Xantavia!

[FNH]

First, murder is different - if you're murdered, you don't have to live with that trauma. Attempted murder on the other hand, well, that's another story, but also, semantics, I'm not going to argue that here.

As far as the falsehood thing, I don't think it's right to, especially in the heat of the moment, start interrogating or placing blame. The fact that this incident allegedly happened one night and she came forward the next day (if what I remember from hey's post is correct) means that the incident was still very raw, the wound was still very much open, and jumping down any victim's throat like that and accusing someone of "drama" (sorry y'all that word got me heated as fuck) is not helping anything.

Just have empathy. Try to help. Try to make the person feel more comfortable. Offer to take her to the police, offer to take care of anything she might need assistance with. Offer to just listen. Leave the interrogation to the cops, that's their job. And for god's sake, put yourself in that person's shoes. If you'd just gotten raped - imagine the humiliation, the shame, the devastation, the invalidation, etc., you must be feeling, and even worse, that your friends won't even try to empathize with you? You would not want that - you'd want them to try to be helpful, not accuse you of stirring up drama. Sound like fucking shitty friends honestly. And if you truly believe that the person (assuming you know them) is making it up or just trying to stir up some shit then ... maybe not say that to that person? Because the only people who know what happened are the victim and the alleged rapist. So why not just leave it alone if you think it's all bullshit instead of possibly making someone who just got raped feel like they're to blame or like they're doing something wrong by coming forward?

Granted this is BG and we are not friends, but I'm not going to sit there and try to vilify anyone. If someone tells me they've been raped, I don't care who they are, I'm going to try to empathize. Am I going to feel a little wronged if it turns out to be false? Maybe, but I'd rather give a victim who is obviously struggling to come forward the benefit of the doubt, because doing what has happened in this thread discourages people from coming forward, which discourages better discourse on the subject with more effective investigations, which might encourage a fundamental shift in the way we handle rape in this country (and throughout the world).

Right now, rape is condoned more often than it's not. That's a radical statement, I know. But the way victims are treated after the fact, the fact that people still believe that clothing, arousal, prior sexual history, or any other factors imply consent, the fact that people will claim a girl "ruined his promising future" (and not that he did it himself by raping - even guys who are caught on film doing it), the fact that so many rapists not only go free but rape repeatedly ... yes, rape is often condoned, and it's really gross.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackstone%27s_formulation

“It is more important that innocence be protected than it is that guilt be punished." - John Adams

[Aksannyi]

Regardless, the ability to be emotionally detached is useful. Here's the way I see it - if a person I know tells me they were raped (and a few have), they get my full sympathy and support for anything they need, right up until what they need is for me to vilify a person I don't know and have no way of knowing whether they're really an evil fuck or not.

No one was vilifying a rapist in here though - I was the first person to respond and I was disgusted by the way the victim was handled. Hey's first post was not about the rapist, it was about how their circle of friends accused hey's girlfriend of starting drama. Generally if someone is proven to be a rapist I do consider them to be a piece of shit, but I haven't personally mentioned the guy at all. My focus is on the fact that people found it totally okay to lynch this girl for literally no reason. Hey was pissed at her circle of friends for good reason - that's a shitty way to treat someone you call a friend.

The problem I have is not that we're vilifying a rapist - and no one is, that I know if, even I have not - but that people are vilifying the victim. Hey's friends started it by saying she was causing drama, then others here started with that. I'll admit one of the earlier posts which I responded to was probably innocent and that I took it wrong, but many of the posts since have all been victim blaming, all centered around this supposed notion of drama.

That's the main thing I initially took issue with, and will continue to take issue with, aside from the fact that rape is a hot-button issue all on its own.

[Cream Soda]

Cream, that is entirely beside the point. I was not comparing a rape to a flat tire

Didn't say you were. I was just saying you were comparing a situation where one person was a victim to something to a situation where the person just had shit luck.

[Aksannyi]

Let me add to my post (this thread is moving rather quickly to just edit) to say that I am not out to prove guilt or innocence, but if someone says, "Hey, I need to tell you, I was raped last night," the first thing you absolutely do not do is say, "God, stop being such a drama queen." or "I don't believe you." Even if you don't believe them. You don't fucking say that.

This is the problem I have. Establishing what actually happened is fine, that's what happens in cases like this, although I don't like a lot of the "what were you wearing" questions and/or implications, but that's beside the point. The problem is that people seem to be perfectly okay with hey's friends acting the way they did.

[BaneTheBrawler]

Still beside the point. I'm done. I suggest everyone move on.

[FNH]

Let me add to my post (this thread is moving rather quickly to just edit) to say that I am not out to prove guilt or innocence, but if someone says, "Hey, I need to tell you, I was raped last night," the first thing you absolutely do not do is say, "God, stop being such a drama queen." or "I don't believe you." Even if you don't believe them. You don't fucking say that.

This is the problem I have. Establishing what actually happened is fine, that's what happens in cases like this, although I don't like a lot of the "what were you wearing" questions and/or implications, but that's beside the point. The problem is that people seem to be perfectly okay with hey's friends acting the way they did.

You may not be, but that is generally the basis of the questions. And maybe the friends know some tendencies of the "victim". I know in my circle of friends that there are a few hangers-on that I would sit down with a lawyer to sign a consent form before engaging them physically.

[Blubbartron]

No one was vilifying a rapist in here though - I was the first person to respond and I was disgusted by the way the victim was handled. Hey's first post was not about the rapist, it was about how their circle of friends accused hey's girlfriend of starting drama. Generally if someone is proven to be a rapist I do consider them to be a piece of shit, but I haven't personally mentioned the guy at all. My focus is on the fact that people found it totally okay to lynch this girl for literally no reason. Hey was pissed at her circle of friends for good reason - that's a shitty way to treat someone you call a friend.

The problem I have is not that we're vilifying a rapist - and no one is, that I know if, even I have not - but that people are vilifying the victim. Hey's friends started it by saying she was causing drama, then others here started with that. I'll admit one of the earlier posts which I responded to was probably innocent and that I took it wrong, but many of the posts since have all been victim blaming, all centered around this supposed notion of drama.

That's the main thing I initially took issue with, and will continue to take issue with, aside from the fact that rape is a hot-button issue all on its own.

I think it's amazing how you glossed over your assumption that he very definitely raped hey's girlfriend, and somehow consider that to not be vilifying a person on its own. You're saying someone is a rapist. That's basically the worst possible thing a human being can be, aside from genocidal.

Also, her friends aren't necessarily vilifying the victim. I'll grant you it's possible that they're soulless cunts that actually don't care about rape, but I think it's much more likely that hey's girlfriend is blowing drunken sex out of proportion (as some people here also like to do), and they're trying to bring her back down to Earth. Hey has yet to confirm or deny, but based on her reaction to my guess, I think I was pretty much on the mark.

[Cream Soda]

Let me add to my post (this thread is moving rather quickly to just edit) to say that I am not out to prove guilt or innocence, but if someone says, "Hey, I need to tell you, I was raped last night," the first thing you absolutely do not do is say, "God, stop being such a drama queen." or "I don't believe you." Even if you don't believe them. You don't fucking say that.

I agree with that 100%

[Aksannyi]

I think it's amazing how you glossed over your assumption that he very definitely raped hey's girlfriend, and somehow consider that to not be vilifying a person on its own. You're saying someone is a rapist. That's basically the worst possible thing a human being can be, aside from genocidal.

Also, her friends aren't necessarily vilifying the victim. I'll grant you it's possible that they're soulless cunts that actually don't care about rape, but I think it's much more likely that hey's girlfriend is blowing drunken sex out of proportion (as some people here also like to do), and they're trying to bring her back down to Earth. Hey has yet to confirm or deny, but based on her reaction to my guess, I think I was pretty much on the mark.

I didn't say this guy actually did it or not. Please point out where I said that. But if someone says, "I was raped," my first reaction isn't to be all like, "FUCKING LIAR." Christ. Hey's first post, the reason this was considered fail in the first place, was not about the rape, it was about the reaction to it. The thing that boggles my mind is how rare false rape accusations are, and yet every time we talk about rape on BG, that's one of the first things that comes up. Every time.

If you don't think that there's something fundamentally wrong with accusing a rape victim of just trying to start drama, then I don't know what else to say at this point. One of the fundamental problems with reporting rape in this country is the reactions people have when someone comes forward and says they're a victim of it. Whether or not this person had a propensity for causing drama - and I have no idea, personally - why risk it? Why risk being an asshole to someone who very well might be legitimately traumatized from rape? Seriously. If it turns out to be false, okay, you lose some of your trust in someone, is that the worst thing that could happen? Probably not. If I told a bunch of my friends I'd been raped and they just brushed me off and called me a drama queen - if my friends reacted that way, I'd feel devastated.

I'm not saying for a fact that the guy did it, I'm not saying for a fact anything. I have literally no idea, the only people who know for sure are the ones involved. But I'm not going to look at a rape victim (or alleged rape victim) and take the road where I call them out for "drama," regardless of what I believe about it. When a friend looks to you for support on something like that, you listen and try not to be a shithead. It's called being a goddamn friend.

Anyway, it's late, and Bane has kindly asked us to drop it, so I'm going to go pass out now. Blubb we probably aren't going to agree, but I just look at it as a different way of treating people. Regardless of how this person was before this particular incident, you just don't say shit like that to someone.

[hey]

I think it's amazing how you glossed over your assumption that he very definitely raped hey's girlfriend, and somehow consider that to not be vilifying a person on its own. You're saying someone is a rapist. That's basically the worst possible thing a human being can be, aside from genocidal.

Also, her friends aren't necessarily vilifying the victim. I'll grant you it's possible that they're soulless cunts that actually don't care about rape, but I think it's much more likely that hey's girlfriend is blowing drunken sex out of proportion (as some people here also like to do), and they're trying to bring her back down to Earth. Hey has yet to confirm or deny, but based on her reaction to my guess, I think I was pretty much on the mark.

Well soroooooorrry for not giving all the details. My post was never fucking even about ther rape, but the way she was treaterd. And then me, for caling them out on it., She was sleeping and woke up to ity happening. I don't fucking think she agreed to it while sleeping and then regretted it. ANd again, we're both poly, there's no need for her to claim rape of she DID get drunk and have sex with him, because guess what? She already has a bnoyfriend, in additopm tp ,me and i have zero problem with that.