Ex-Marine shot and killed by police in own house

[Khamsin]

Did you read the article? It was a 68-year old grandfather who was being shot with Tazers and Beanbag shot guns, and obviously not in a right mental state. He called them, then told them he was fine and for them to go away, yet they broke down his door and shot him with beanbags and tazers. Hell, a niece was in the house that they could have asked about the situation, and his son lived 5 minutes away. I didn't know when there's hostage situations (this is the only thing I could possibly think of to relate the similarities), you break down the door and go guns blazing. You talk to the guy, you don't bang on the fucking door til it opens.

I thought it was a 68-year old grandfather who triggered his medical alert pendant, which signaled an unknown emergency after his lack of response. When the police arrived to check on him, prepared to force their way in to ensure his safety and well-being, he assaulted them with a butcher knife. The police responded by scrambling into a defensive posture and pulling out their tasers in surprise, which he withstood and was subsequently incapacitated after not standing down.

At least, that's how the article makes it sound when you spin it the other way, and the article was very well spun.

[Niiro]

Did you read the article? It was a 68-year old grandfather who was being shot with Tazers and Beanbag shot guns, and obviously not in a right mental state. He called them, then told them he was fine and for them to go away, yet they broke down his door and shot him with beanbags and tazers. Hell, a niece was in the house that they could have asked about the situation, and his son lived 5 minutes away. I didn't know when there's hostage situations (this is the only thing I could possibly think of to relate the similarities), you break down the door and go guns blazing. You talk to the guy, you don't bang on the fucking door til it opens.

From the sound of things he refused to open the door, it would make sense to me that after the triggering of the alarm and the lack of response, police and paramedics have an obligation to confirm the identity and well being of the person or people inside. If he was mentally unstable even more so.

I won't even try and justify the tasing/bean-bagging and shooting of the guy. That's just fucking ridiculous.

How in the fucking fuck does a sickly 68 year old man (or anyone for that matter) withstand a taser such that he can reach for a knife and charge a group of officers with it? Article says there was a sound recording from the alert system, a security camera in the hall, and the police tasers had cameras as well. I wanna see that shit.

[Kuya]

Even if the old man could withstand a taser, i just don't see how it's wise to use tasers and beanbags on old people with medical conditions.

[Qalbert]

according to another source

You can see on the video from the taser that they fired a taser at him. And I’m assuming that both prongs didn’t go in. He stood about maybe eight to 10 feet away from them with his hands down to his side. And at one point, you hear one of the officers say, "Cut it off." And it was at that point they shot and killed my father.

it has a transcript of an interview with the son, so obviously it's not impartial, but yeah

[Valisk]

Even if the old man could withstand a taser, i just don't see how it's wise to use tasers and beanbags on old people with medical conditions.

ITP: Old people with medical conditions can't be dangerous.

[Kuya]

ITP: Old people with medical conditions can't be dangerous.

I care more about the safety of an old man who's served his country and is minding his own business in his own home over the safety of overzealous police officers.

[Sera]

ITP: Old people with medical conditions can't be dangerous.

oh they can be. But I feel like if we can deal with them in a hospital without shooting them, the police should be able to handle it too.

[Valisk]

Life or death/injury situations. You guys don't know what those policemen and women go thru on a daily basis. You guys are assuming that the police story has no validity and that him charging at them with a butcher knife is false. I'm not even passing judgment on this case, but don't make a sweeping generalization like old people with medical conditions shouldn't be tased/beanbagged like there's never an instance where they can be deemed dangerous.

[Niiro]

I've come up with idea called "reasonable use of force".

I think we should teach it to our law enforcement officers.

Also why did they go from taser to bullet when it's mentioned they had beanbag shotguns.

[Dimmauk]

@sera they can try to shoot him but the bullets would richochet off

Wrong superhero. He is Batman, not Superman.

[Gregorio]

I've come up with idea called "reasonable use of force".

I think we should teach it to our law enforcement officers.

Also why did they go from taser to bullet when it's mentioned they had beanbag shotguns.

Someone coming at you with a knife is deadly force. It's perfectly reasonable and justifiable to meet deadly force with deadly force.

[Kuya]

Life or death/injury situations. You guys don't know what those policemen and women go thru on a daily basis. You guys are assuming that the police story has no validity and that him charging at them with a butcher knife is false. I'm not even passing judgment on this case, but don't make a sweeping generalization like old people with medical conditions shouldn't be tased/beanbagged like there's never an instance where they can be deemed dangerous.

Where the bias should lie is clear. Our rules and laws should bias towards protecting citizens, particularly vulnerable ones, inside the safety of their own homes. The safety of police officers should come second to this.

[Gregorio]

Where the bias should lie is clear. Our rules and laws should bias towards protecting citizens, particularly vulnerable ones, inside the safety of their own homes. The safety of police officers should come second to this.

So a police officer cannot protect themselves while at work from a citizen as long as they are in their own home?

Makes prefect sense.

[Kuya]

They can protect themselves. With words, pellets, and tasers. In that order.

[Khamsin]

I've come up with idea called "reasonable use of force".

I think we should teach it to our law enforcement officers.

Also why did they go from taser to bullet when it's mentioned they had beanbag shotguns.

Do they have to go through their entire arsenal of non-lethal weapons before they just say 'fuck it' and shoot the guy?

"Oh my gosh, he's coming at us with a knife!"
*tase*
"He's still coming!"
*beanbag shotgun*
"Nope, still coming!"
*flash grenade*
"Damn, he's STILL coming!"
*tear gas*
"Nope, what else we got? Guys? Guys-- oh no, you've all been stabbed to death! We didn't even get a chance to use our batons!"

Ok, slightly exaggerated, but they tried non-lethal force, it didn't work. I'm sure things were happening fast, and you gotta do what you think you gotta do, even if later you have time to think on it and it was wrong.

[Gregorio]

They can protect themselves. With words, pellets, and tasers. In that order.

The use of force matrix is not a ladder. Khamsin replied with something along the lines of what I would have, but if someone pulls a knife on you there is no requirement for anyone to step by step make their way up to deadly force. That would be stupid. Also, 99.99% of police officers don't have pellets/bean bags. And a lot don't have tasers.

[Kuya]

Then it seems police officers are woefully ill equipped to handle a spectrum of violence, if all they can be expected to do is shoot/not shoot. It seems to me that a private citizen has the right of way if he is in his own home and is breaking no laws.

[Sera]

Someone coming at you with a knife is deadly force. It's perfectly reasonable and justifiable to meet deadly force with deadly force.

We deal with shit like this in hospital all the time. People get crazy, grab sharp things, get threatening. They get restrained, the situation is dealt with. No one gets shot.

Really don't see why it can't be handled the same way.

[Gregorio]

I can't handle the same way because I don't live in a fantasy world were nobody ever died from being cut. and what hospital do you work at where people are leaving knives laying around by crazy people?

[Qalbert]

Princeton Plainsboro