Georgia/Arizona push abortion law to 20 weeks

**RKenshin** · 2012-04-03 19:40

Originally Posted by Moosey

When is any sort of life not something to value? You disregard any sort of religion, but say that biological life is not something of value? When you take away the spiritual component, all you have is biological life. You sound confused, sir.

"Any sort of life"?

That doesn't mean anything.

Skin cells are living. Bacteria is living. Yet I'm willing to bet you wash your hands, have taken anti-biotics, and have scratched yourself.

Why are they any less important, under your definition that 'all forms of life should be valued'?

Originally Posted by Moosey

An egg isn't a person though. It's a building block for a human though, as is a sperm, which is not a person either.

A fetus can just as ambiguously be defined as 'a building block for a human', as without a constant supply of nutrients from the mother it will not develop into anything at all.

A fetus does not survive or develop into a human independent of other forces. Just as an egg doesn't.

This argument isn't too dissimilar from me trying to say that "Flour isn't a cake, it's a building block for it. Now, if you add some water to that flour, then yeah, you have yourself a cake!"

EDIT: ! ZEALOT! You stole my cake metaphor, you asshole. I spent a whole 5 minutes coming up with that one.

**RKenshin** · 2012-04-03 20:15

Eh, I'm genuinely interested in the debate.

It can be a bit frustrating, but otherwise these threads just end up being giant circle jerks.

No fun debating among a bunch of like-minded people. Then again, I'm not brave enough (nor do I hate myself enough) to go onto a random extremist pro-life site.

**Pirian** · 2012-04-03 20:24

Originally Posted by RKenshin

Eh, I'm genuinely interested in the debate.

It can be a bit frustrating, but otherwise these threads just end up being giant circle jerks.

No fun debating among a bunch of like-minded people. Then again, I'm not brave enough (nor do I hate myself enough) to go onto a random extremist pro-life site.

GL finding a extremist pro-life site that won't ban you for expressing a logical, thought out viewpoint that isn't based upon their own truthiness (regardless of actual factuality)

**ronin sparthos** · 2012-04-03 20:28

Originally Posted by RKenshin

Eh, I'm genuinely interested in the debate.

It can be a bit frustrating, but otherwise these threads just end up being giant circle jerks.

No fun debating among a bunch of like-minded people. Then again, I'm not brave enough (nor do I hate myself enough) to go onto a random extremist pro-life site.

Thats the difference between places that are pro-choice like BG and pro-life wingnut sites.

On places like BG you'll at the worst get insulted, possibly incur a ban and get called out on logical fallacies but on an extremist pro-life site? Death threats, religious threats, insults, bans and people crusading to find you and kill you.

Isn't it wonderful and ironic?

**Niiro** · 2012-04-03 20:44

Ruke is right.

Claiming that life begins at any given arbitrary point is just as intellectually dishonest as claiming it begins at conception.

People probably won't be able to see that through the jizz glazing their monitors tho.

**Dotsudoku** · 2012-04-03 21:43

The pseudo-scientific/philosophic arguments against abortion have never added up to me. If you're arguing in regard to the potential to become human, you can't ignore the "murder" involved with sperm and eggs. If you're arguing on behalf of it's mental development.. well, without any formal education in biological/physiological growth, I'd imagine most animals are more aware of life, pain, or what have you than an unborn child, and those same people don't seem to take issue with their slaughter.

If that's complete bullshit, please correct me.

**archibaldcrane** · 2012-04-04 00:14

So, wait...how can they do this, when Roe v. Wade specifically prohibits restrictions on abortion until 24 weeks?

**Pirian** · 2012-04-04 00:25

Originally Posted by archibaldcrane

So, wait...how can they do this, when Roe v. Wade specifically prohibits restrictions on abortion until 24 weeks?

http://img.chan4chan.com/img/2010-08...2901296976.jpg

Now I can shoot them when they come to arrest me, too!

**BaneTheBrawler** · 2012-04-04 00:57

They can do that because...

Reagan America lamestream media socialists death panel tea party Reagan founding fathers children America children Reagan socialists founding fathers immigrants lamestream media Reagan children children children children immigrants America founding fathers!

I probably missed a few sound-bites. Politicians sure do like their sound-bites.

**Byrthnoth** · 2012-04-04 01:30

Originally Posted by Moosey

When is any sort of life not something to value? You disregard any sort of religion, but say that biological life is not something of value? When you take away the spiritual component, all you have is biological life. You sound confused, sir.

Neuroscience happened. Dualism is dead. All you have is biological life, but different people and creatures are more or less capable of looking at the things around themselves and understanding what is going on. If a cat dies, the world hasn't lost the next cat-Einstein that was going to invent a cheap clean energy source. Our planet is not poorer for its loss.

If all you value is biological life, why not protest in front of humane societies? Is the biological life of an adult dog worth less than the biological life of a few thousand cells growing inside a woman that doesn't want to be pregnant?

**Jeherrit** · 2012-04-04 02:20

Dogs don't have souls silly.

**Sera** · 2012-04-04 03:37

This just in, eggs are alive, breakfast is murder, omelets are chicken genocide. Have fun at IHOP, you Hitlers-in-training.

**Acturus** · 2012-04-04 07:52

Originally Posted by archibaldcrane

So, wait...how can they do this, when Roe v. Wade specifically prohibits restrictions on abortion until 24 weeks?

It does?

"Not a lawyer" disclaimer here...

I was under the impression that it hinged on the fetus' viability which is currently around the 24 week mark. The whole point of the trimester system established by Roe V Wade was to define viability which limits the state's ability to hold a larger claim on the fetus than the individual carrying it. It was originally defined at about 7 months, but medical advancements have improved on that since 1973.

Webster V Reproductive Health has since modified the original Roe V Wade parameters. The Webster case allowed for viability testing to begin as early as 20 weeks, but also stated that provisions in state law that outright banned abortion in the second trimester were unconstitutional. That's what I'm most concerned about with this GA/AZ law set.

Because 20 weeks is within the second trimester, is it constitutional or not? Abortions can still be performed in the second trimester, per this law, but not all the way through it.

Really, Roe V Wade simply said that women who seek abortions have a right to privacy afforded by the 14th amendment. There's no legal "right" to have an abortion. It's just that women who choose to do so are afforded privacy protection. What sucks is that the original decision balances the woman's right against the state's right, and that balance tips towards the state up to the point of viability, which is why the trimester system was imposed in the first place.

Unfortunately, the state's stake in the safety and welfare of one if its interests (can't really call it a citizen) is arguably upheld in the fetal pain bill. The state can claim that individuals (women) are causing pain to the state's interest (fetus) in having an abortion. I don't know what was actually argued while this bill was debated, but it's a pretty good argument, assuming the science backs up the claim. That's the point, I think, that will factor in to whether or not this type of law is upheld. Whoever can argue their version of the data provided by science better.

**ronin sparthos** · 2012-04-04 08:58

Have we arrived at the conclusion that every woman who goes through a menstrual cycle is passively participating in murder yet? That egg had the potential for life and unless she is perpetually pregnant every time she is viable a crime against humanity is being committed.

Hitler doesn't hold a candle to the combined forces of selfish women in the US.

**Ayn** · 2012-04-04 09:22

Because mixing a bunch of flour and eggs in a bowl doesn't make a cake.

But the cake batter sure is delicious!

**Ragnus** · 2012-04-04 09:27

Screw eggs. Apple Sauce is the superior binding agent. :3

**Sera** · 2012-04-04 10:11

2 weeks, 20 weeks. Doesn't matter. The point is, the righteous get to make sure the wicked woman doesn't get to make her own choices. Serves her right. She already proved she can't handle having the ability to make choices by being a slut and getting pregnant in the first place. Good thing the righteous are there to push their values and make sure gods will is done!

**Egon** · 2012-04-04 10:25

The choice is to have sex or not. If that woman didn't have the choice and was forced to have sex, then give the child up for adoption. Life sucks and isn't fair, and the more fair you try to make it, the less fair it is becomes for someone else (the child).

My bro adopted a child whose mother (18 years old) was raped. Guess what? The kid is now 10 and is a straight A student. Why should my nephew not have the right to live because his sperm donor was a terrible human being?

Everyone wins this way. Yes it sucks that the mom got raped, yes it sucked she had to carry him for 9 months. But my nephew has brought 10 years+ of joy to my brother and his wife. Are we so selfish of a society now that we won't sacrifice anything for the greater good? The mother did the right thing, not the selfish thing, and my bro is thankful for it every single day.

The average liberal wants to give give give! That's great! There is nothing better than the gift of life!

**Helm** · 2012-04-04 10:28

I considered writing a response to that, but I'll let someone else bite the bait.
Edit: All I'll say is arguing from -a- particular to the general is a terrible way to try and make a point. If you can't figure out why, it's really your problem.

**TacoTaru** · 2012-04-04 10:32

Originally Posted by Egon

My bro adopted a child whose mother (18 years old) was raped. Guess what? The kid is now 10 and is a straight A student. Why should my nephew not have the right to live because his sperm donor was a terrible human being?

Everyone wins this way. Yes it sucks that the mom got raped, yes it sucked she had to carry him for 9 months. But my nephew has brought 10 years+ of joy to my brother and his wife. Are we so selfish of a society now that we won't sacrifice anything for the greater good? The mother did the right thing, not the selfish thing, and my bro is thankful for it every single day.

whose mother (18 years old) was raped.
sperm donor
Everyone wins this way.

http://mlkshk.com/r/DG2Y

Thread: Georgia/Arizona push abortion law to 20 weeks

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