The Prenatal Holocaust

[Ksandra]

erm... I'm assuming you mean conception.

ya, my bad.

point remains, the part he quoted was about how you don't care about the age of viability, yet they then go off about conception. Which are completely different things.


Again, I don't think the actually labor should then finally be the child's right to life if it's already able to live, just mother nature hasn't popped it out yet.


No matter how you slice it, there is a life growing inside the woman. Your kidney example doesn't work because the kidneys are not being turned into a new person. As much as you may want to fight and say "woman's body, woman's say" that just simply isn't true in this case. There IS a life being formed. I think being able to wait 9 months then destroying it is completely irresponsible, and not even within the spirit of a woman's right. That 40 week old fetus is a baby for all intense and purposes by that point it's just hasn't gotten around to popping out yet, it deserves some rights.

[Tajin]

I want to burn in the stake each and every fucker that thinks human life is sacred, just saying.

[Demosthenes11]

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. For all we know there's a giant invisible spaghetti monster floating above the north pole with a noodle attached to the back of our heads, guiding us through life... but it can only be observed through the Flibbity-flobbity-floo-iscope, which sees in the spaghetti-spectrum. Which obviously doesn't exist yet.

Not really interested in a full-on religious debate right now, but just thought I'd point out that humanity's ability to observe our surroundings has been expanding constantly throughout the ages; I see no reason why a several-thousand-year-old trend should suddenly stop.

edit aaaah yeh beat meh.

Also, how do YOU know there aren't 9 foot tall 8 armed people? because I am aware of no such thing, and am curious as to your certainty that they do not exist. Have you searched every planet? Do you know all that there is to know? If so, I congratulate you on travelling to the 10th dimension, and beg you to choose a reality that no longer has Crohn's and in which I am a genius billionaire.

that was my point. It's silly. You can't prove a negative. Either there is evidence for something that is proven through the rigors of science, or it's ridiculous to talk about it and is based on nothing and does not exist for all intents and purposes. Souls are like giant 9 foot tall people with 8 arms.

[Ksandra]

@ tajin ya let's just kill anyone and everyone, who gives a fuck?

[Sera]

I would not necessarily disagree with this statement (I have a terribly low opinion of politicians of all stripes, and tend to believe that power breeds contempt), but I would be willing to bet that most common people who are opposed to abortion see the issue simply as "You're killing an innocent human life," and it really is as simple as that for them. It's not even that they are unsympathetic with concerns over women's control over their bodies, it's just that they believe that the sacredness of human life trumps it, and they believe that that sacredness begins at conception. Purely anecdotal, and take it for what you will, but at least in my experience moderate Christian women are more likely to adopt this perspective than moderate Christian men are... the men are more likely to preclude themselves on ground they don't face the dilemma. Re-emphasize: anecdotal, moderate.

Oh sure. I'd be inclined to also believe that Christian women have been indoctrinated to believe that it's more "noble" of them to have the kid even if they don't want it and suffer through (and in doing so, also sometimes inadvertently make the kid suffer too, hello christian teen mom high school dropouts!) I need to have this kid so god will love me more! etc.

[Tajin]

@ tajin ya let's just kill anyone and everyone, who gives a fuck?

That's not what I said, but then again I do not disagree with this anyway.

[Indeed]

It's not semantics. It's pointing out an ethnocentric misconception. You're better off just admitting you don't know anything about Eastern culture/religion and leaving it at that.

In a similar vein, it's his last sentence which is most important. Religion doesn't just spring out of nowhere. It is generally based upon pre-existing cultural practices. If Western culture is patriarchal, then religion which is generated from and thrives in Western culture is going to be similarly patriarchal. In this case, it is more correct to say that Western religion is responsible for a portion of the clinging to Western cultural values in a globalized world.

Did I not do that? I thought we were kind of having a conversation in the context of the legality of abortion in America, so I'm not sure how relevant eastern religious practices are. I wasn't even considering them in my statement. Leave it at that. It was not meant to include anything that isn't relevant to the politics of abortion in America. If that wasn't properly expressed, my fucking bad, but seriously please do not turn this into 45 fucking pages of arguing about something I never intended to state. That's all I'm asking here.

[Ksandra]

That's not what I said, but then again I do not disagree with this anyway.

sounds like it to me:

every fucker that thinks human life is sacred

if you don't think human life is sacred, what's the harm in ending it for people?

[Kohan]

I agree with Indeed, as this doesn't need to be destroyed in as stupid of a fashion as the transsexual thread was. Besides, that discussion didn't imply nearly the same level of potential deliciousness as this one does.

@ tajin ya let's just kill anyone and everyone, who gives a fuck?

You do know that the word "sacred" specifically ties something to a religion, don't you? Granted, it can be used in a more general fashion, but I believe his point was that there isn't any God around to bless the little bitches, and he can't stand it whenever anyone implies otherwise.

This also means that they're free game for hunting, 'cause you can't go to Hell when there ain't no Hell, am I right?

[Sera]

ya, my bad.

point remains, the part he quoted was about how you don't care about the age of viability, yet they then go off about conception. Which are completely different things.


Again, I don't think the actually labor should then finally be the child's right to life if it's already able to live, just mother nature hasn't popped it out yet.


No matter how you slice it, there is a life growing inside the woman. Your kidney example doesn't work because the kidneys are not being turned into a new person. As much as you may want to fight and say "woman's body, woman's say" that just simply isn't true in this case. There IS a life being formed. I think being able to wait 9 months then destroying it is completely irresponsible, and not even within the spirit of a woman's right. That 40 week old fetus is a baby for all intense and purposes by that point it's just hasn't gotten around to popping out yet, it deserves some rights.

It certainly isn't something I would do, agreed. Hell, I don't think I'd abort at 24-26 weeks, myself. But that is ME. The beauty of having a say. But I can't know for sure, and circumstances are never certain. What if something goes wrong, someone is sick, etc. Not all abortions are "because I wanna" but when we start putting conditions on shit we start systematically removing autonomy from the medical process. I can't support that, ever. I can tell you what I think I would do, but I can't really say for sure. No one really can until they're confronted with it.

At the same time, you can't apply their values to others. I don't feel like most docs would abort a 40 week old baby that was perfectly healthy. I think many would induce and take it for adoption. I like that idea. But when you start making rules and making things illegal, Ksandra -- the innocent people who need those procedures because something is WRONG will suffer as a result. The people who have "bad" or irresponsible intentions will always be able to do whatever they want regardless of the law. The innocent will suffer.

At some point we have to trust the medical board and the MDs to do their jobs properly and safely. A doc can refuse to do a procedure.
We need to leave autonomy to the patient.

[Indeed]

I'm also not sure that the point about western culture is entirely relevant. Our culture is currently moving away from a blatantly patriarchal sort of system that outright oppresses and disregards women in the day-to-day, or considers them in general to be lesser human beings. Just about the only thing left around to instill and reinforce those beliefs are the religions that've survived and refuse to fucking die already. That's why I said religion, and not culture.

[ronin sparthos]

Taking any social position is often dictating morality. Even if the position is individual autonomy, you dictate that it is immoral for people to intervene in an individual's decision. If that annoys you, you should abstain from participating in any debate.

What annoys me is the hypocrisy of the modern pro-life movement in the US more so than the actual moral dictation. Life is sacred yet once that baby is born no one gives a shit about the condition that child grows up in because suddenly life isn't so sacred anymore. Your parents are drug addicts? Sad for you. Parents can't afford to keep you fed and watered? Bet you wish you could respawn. Born with crippling neurological conditions? Divinities gift to you. Parents can't afford to take care of a child with Downs/Cerebral Palsy? Work harder.

There is no middle ground, there is no solution, there is no analysis of the logistics or intricacies of the individual situation of people across a varied populace. Nope, it's just wrong and that's that. Such simpleminded thinking may sway the hearts and appeal to emotion but reality is far more complex and attempting to make things black and white does nothing to solve the problem if you want to call abortions a problem in the first place.

We've seen in the past that outlawing abortion just leads to an underground market where desperate women die needlessly because they need to rid themselves of a child. Many of the voices that lead the pro-life charge also happen to be christian fundamentalists who have their own plans for what the US should be and this abortion battle is just their first point of contention in a grander plot to make this country "Christian" kicking and screaming. Perhaps I am just being a conspiracy nut again but it's something always on my mind.

This starts with 'every life is sacred' and it ends with completely outlawing any form of birth control on theological grounds.

[Greatguardian]

Absence of evidence does not equal evidence of absence.

Don't even try to quote science around me, boy.

Absence of evidence to support the alternative hypothesis results in the usage of the null hypothesis - the default state. A null hypothesis can never be proven. A set of data can either reject it or fail to reject it. You are utterly incapable of rationalizing the existence of the soul beyond "Well, I think so, so there", because that is your null hypothesis. Null hypotheses have absolutely no value whatsoever. It is the rational equivalent of believing in santa claus.

[Ksandra]

You do know that the word "sacred" specifically ties something to a religion, don't you? Granted, it can be used in a more general fashion

-.-; I expect better of you, Kohan. It's not my fault he was vague in his statement so I ran with it.

[Tajin]

I dislike mostly the semantic faggotry involved with the whole sacred thing, like:

holding human life in higher regard than all other forms of life

[Greatguardian]

I'm also not sure that the point about western culture is entirely relevant. Our culture is currently moving away from a blatantly patriarchal sort of system that outright oppresses and disregards women in the day-to-day, or considers them in general to be lesser human beings. Just about the only thing left around to instill and reinforce those beliefs are the religions that've survived and refuse to fucking die already. That's why I say religion, and not culture.

This has more to do with the fact that Western culture is globalizing and thus dying off than anything else. Eventually, there will no longer be "Western" culture at all, and there will just be Human culture.

Of course, that's a modernist assessment of the situation. We're currently living in a post-modern era, so whether that progression continues beyond our current state or not is still up in the air.

[Kohan]

-.-; I expect better of you, Kohan. It's not my fault he was vague in his statement so I ran with it.

Considering the context of the discussion, it isn't vague at all.

[Sera]

What annoys me is the hypocrisy of the modern pro-life movement in the US more so than the actual moral dictation. Life is sacred yet once that baby is born no one gives a shit about the condition that child grows up in because suddenly life isn't so sacred anymore. Your parents are drug addicts? Sad for you. Parents can't afford to keep you fed and watered? Bet you wish you could respawn. Born with crippling neurological conditions? Divinities gift to you. Parents can't afford to take care of a child with Downs/Cerebral Palsy? Work harder.

There is no middle ground, there is no solution, there is no analysis of the logistics or intricacies of the individual situation of people across a varied populace. Nope, it's just wrong and that's that. Such simpleminded thinking may sway the hearts and appeal to emotion but reality is far more complex and attempting to make things black and white does nothing to solve the problem if you want to call abortions a problem in the first place.

We've seen in the past that outlawing abortion just leads to an underground market where desperate women die needlessly because they need to rid themselves of a child. Many of the voices that lead the pro-life charge also happen to be christian fundamentalists who have their own plans for what the US should be and this abortion battle is just their first point of contention in a grander plot to make this country "Christian" kicking and screaming. Perhaps I am just being a conspiracy nut again but it's something always on my mind.

This starts with 'every life is sacred' and it ends with completely outlawing any form of birth control on theological grounds.

YES YES YES
HARDER FASTER YES

But seriously yes omg all of that so much

[Kohan]

It's a good thing that people like Indeed and ronin are around to set the record straight, as I haven't much time to flick out more than quips on my phone and/or while I'm at work.

My lunch break is about to begin, however. Anyone have a spare skinned baby?

[Greatguardian]

Is it really a conspiracy if the Christian Right admits to wanting to turn this nation into a Christian theocracy?

I mean that's like their prime selling point.