The Prenatal Holocaust

[Milkster]

So sexual relations are that cut and dry for you?

[RKenshin]

ITT: sex is a necessity along with transportation.

sex is recreation. extracurricular. It's really, really great recreation, but it's not a requirement for an individual to live. "I did not want a kid" is not a defense of knocking a girl up. It's a consequence that can happen, and if you don't want a baby, don't have sex, or pray the woman is ok with an abortion. You know, be an adult.

"I did not want a kid and my significant other agreed in feeling the same way, and even signed a paper agreeing in with that" isn't a reasonable defense?

And yeah, you're not going to win in telling people (oops, I mean, only men) never to have sex unless they want kids.

Sure, it's not a necessity, but neither is most of the food we eat. But good luck telling people 'live off of beans and rice or gtfo with your food borne illness complaints.'

[Demosthenes11]

So sexual relations are that cut and dry for you?

why make it more complicated than that? When you consent to sex, you consent to the risks. If you get an STD, you get an STD and you don't get to file a lawsuit. If you get a woman pregnant, you are at her mercy. Because YOU want her to get a traumatizing or what she may feel is a morally wrong operation does not allow you to shirk your responsibilities as an adult.

sex really is that simple. Wear a condom, make sure to only have sex with people you trust, and pray the condom doesn't break and the bitch doesn't turn out to be crazy.

[Demosthenes11]

"I did not want a kid and my significant other agreed in feeling the same way, and even signed a paper agreeing in with that" isn't a reasonable defense?

And yeah, you're not going to win in telling people (oops, I mean, only men) never to have sex unless they want kids.

Sure, it's not a necessity, but neither is most of the food we eat. But good luck telling people 'live off of beans and rice or gtfo with your food borne illness complaints.'

of course we aren't going to get people to stop; nothing ever will. This isn't about getting people to stop, it's about people manning up to the responsibility of their actions. Take precautions and don't fuck random bitches you met at a club or in an alley in SOMA. When was the last time you consented to an STD?

Again, "oh you can just get an abortion" is fucking laughable, even if it was "agreed" to before. An expectation of a highly invasive and many times traumatizing procedure is insulting.

[RKenshin]

why make it more complicated than that? When you consent to sex, you consent to the risks. If you get an STD, you get an STD and you don't get to file a lawsuit. If you get a woman pregnant, you are at her mercy. Because YOU want her to get a traumatizing or what she may feel is a morally wrong operation does not allow you to shirk your responsibilities as an adult.

sex really is that simple. Wear a condom, make sure to only have sex with people you trust, and pray the condom doesn't break and the bitch doesn't turn out to be crazy.

I think you're talking about something a bit different here.

No one is saying that a man should be able to force a women into an abortion.

I'm also pretty sure that no one is saying a man should be able to say "oops, ha, I'm outta here!" and shirk all forms of personal responsibility for any situation.

What seems to be more close to the sentiment here, is that if two adults come together and agree on not having kids even in the event of the 'surprise pregnancy!' (and even possibly sign a paper stating as much), then the man should be able to absolve financial/father responsibility if the woman out-of-the-blue decides to violate that.

[Cantih]

why make it more complicated than that? When you consent to sex, you consent to the risks. If you get an STD, you get an STD and you don't get to file a lawsuit. If you get a woman pregnant, you are at her mercy. Because YOU want her to get a traumatizing or what she may feel is a morally wrong operation does not allow you to shirk your responsibilities as an adult.

sex really is that simple. Wear a condom, make sure to only have sex with people you trust, and pray the condom doesn't break and the bitch doesn't turn out to be crazy.

Riiiiiiiight.
Forget this Demo, the other one's better.

[RKenshin]

Like I first said, there's no easy answer/solution to this... but regardless both sides of this coin can be pretty fucked up.

It's wrong for women to use children as a tool for easy child support/cash/benefits, or as a way to exploit a guy (even if rare). And it's wrong for men to not face some sort of accountability for their actions in this, and of course wrong for men to 'expect' an abortion.

The middle-ground between those two though, is that if two adults formally agree that "Y is off the table" then there should be no question in holding both parties accountable to that. As opposed to saying just one party always gets their way, no matter what.


EDIT: To clarify, by 'holding both parties accountable to that' I don't mean forcing the woman into abortion. They can still of course have the kid, but by violating the 'agreement' they just don't get the luxury of the child support.

[Demosthenes11]

I think you're talking about something a bit different here.

No one is saying that a man should be able to force a women into an abortion.

I'm also pretty sure that no one is saying a man should be able to say "oops, ha, I'm outta here!" and shirk all forms of personal responsibility for any situation.

What seems to be more close to the sentiment here, is that if two adults come together and agree on not having kids even in the event of the 'surprise pregnancy!' (and even possibly sign a paper stating as much), then the man should be able to absolve financial/father responsibility of the woman out-of-the-blue decides to violate that.

I understand this sentiment, but again, that implies a "Get an abortion or this problem is all yours," which is not a good policy - it's a terrible policy. Things should never predicate on abortion.

[Demosthenes11]

honestly, this all is moot anyways lol

like fuck are the people who get caught in child support traps and shit like that ever going to be intelligent enough to sit down and talk / sign a document before having sex

[RKenshin]

I understand this sentiment, but again, that implies a "Get an abortion or this problem is all yours," which is not a good policy - it's a terrible policy. Things should never predicate on abortion.

That's not necessarily what it has to imply.

If abortion is such a strong issue for the woman in question, couldn't you just as easily flip the blame on the woman in that case?
"Have sex with a guy that agrees in wanting to have a kid or the problem is all yours."

I concede to that sounding a bit silly, but so is the male's alternative of "never have sex unless you want babies."

[Demosthenes11]

That's not necessarily what it has to imply.

If abortion is such a strong issue for the woman in question, couldn't you just as easily flip the blame on the woman in that case?
"Have sex with a guy that agrees in wanting to have a kid or the problem is all yours."

I concede to that sounding a bit silly, but so is the male's alternative of "never have sex unless you want babies."

I'd agree if babies just appeared with a snap of your fingers. The entire process of pregnancy and deciding to carry it to term is incredibly taxing, physically and emotionally, whereas with a dude, there isn't much of any of that unless he is also extremely emotionally involved, which would probably exclude that couple from being in a situation like this in the first place.

[RKenshin]

I'd agree if babies just appeared with a snap of your fingers. The entire process of pregnancy and deciding to carry it to term is incredibly taxing, physically and emotionally, whereas with a dude, there isn't much of any of that unless he is also extremely emotionally involved, which would probably exclude that couple from being in a situation like this in the first place.

I wasn't really going to drill much further, but you made an interesting implication here. This is what I'm getting from you, correct if wrong:

Because woman have to go through the pain and struggles of pregnancy (which are significant, I'm not understating that), and men don't have to deal with much at all comparatively, the legal trade-off women receive for that is being able to have sex without accountability and always control when/how/with whom they'll have a kid and be guaranteed financial support and benefits for it regardless (since it doesn't matter what the male thinks/wants, they'll be held responsible either way).

Men on the other hand not only have no control over when/with whom they have a kid (this, is fair considering it'd be wrong to force someone else into pregnancy), but they also cannot have sex without being held fully responsible for the results 100% of the time (this, not quite as fair, at least not for all situations).

So in short, you're for legally offsetting the pain of pregnancy by requiring the male always has to be held accountable (and without choice, other than lolabstinence).

[myreality]

"never have sex unless you want babies."

People who think like this need to educate themselves a bit. reproduction is as much a natural instinct to humans as with any other animal on earth, there is a reason sexual repression causes so many problems to a person. The chemical changes to the brain that happen with a simple kiss is a complex mechanism that diminishes inhibitions and increases a persons desire to fulfill their role to breed. Yes, human beings have a higher cognitive function than any animal on earth but i think it is pretty clear cut that humans have yet to break out of their most basic primitive instincts.

Here is an oversimplified list of what happens to the brain/body to back up my claim.

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Health......-a070530635

[Churchill]

I seem to recall someone saying they had just read the dumbest post in the history of posts, however I'm more inclined to believe it's what has followed which will take that crowning achievement.

[Churchill]

After reading demos posts I'm even more convinced that men should get an opt out button. You can stipulate the amount of time that passes before he files paperwork if you want, but I am certainly more convinced that men need more rights in this regard.

[Demosthenes11]

"never have sex unless you want babies."

People who think like this need to educate themselves a bit. reproduction is as much a natural instinct to humans as with any other animal on earth, there is a reason sexual repression causes so many problems to a person. The chemical changes to the brain that happen with a simple kiss is a complex mechanism that diminishes inhibitions and increases a persons desire to fulfill their role to breed. Yes, human beings have a higher cognitive function than any animal on earth but i think it is pretty clear cut that humans have yet to break out of their most basic primitive instincts.

Here is an oversimplified list of what happens to the brain/body to back up my claim.

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Health......-a070530635

and men have a natural inclination to deck people in the mouth when they get angry. "A natural inclination" does not a responsible decision make.

[myreality]

and men have a natural inclination to deck people in the mouth when they get angry. "A natural inclination" does not a responsible decision make.

Im not saying responsibility is thrown out the window due to these facts. My point is that people are not going to just go cold turkey on sex, and one can be presented with a situation where sex is unplanned for the day but a chance presents itself in someway. The large majority take responsibility by always having a condom or some other form of contreceptive on hand as a just in case, but people are not perfect and mistakes happen. Taking the ability to provide the option for professional care in these cases is an absurd notion.

A woman has a right to her body, and anything that pertains to her body. Anything that can cause potential harm to her body, the woman has the right to remove such in the case of unwanted pregnancies. The fetus extracts nutrients from the host (woman). This is not a decision for the religious nuts pushing their beliefs on others, or those who have absolutely nothing invested on such personal matters.

One can hardly compare hitting someone to that of the natural drive to have sex. One has chemical changes and instinctual drive to fulfill the reproductive instincts the other is caused by an irritant. It is easier to walk away angry unless a woman is involved and present, which is another instinctual drive which does not pertain to the topic at hand.

[Demosthenes11]

and you accept responsibility when shit does hit the fan. Like 5% of people want a baby when they have sex. I certainly do not want a child right now and I have sex about 300 times per week and have been for the last several years, and if something had (or will) happen, that shit is mine to take care of it she decides she wants to keep it. A baby is the consequence of 2 people getting together and deciding to have sex, not the consequence of a woman deciding not to have an abortion.

[myreality]

and you accept responsibility when shit does hit the fan. Like 5% of people want a baby when they have sex. I certainly do not want a child right now and I have sex about 300 times per week and have been for the last several years, and if something had (or will) happen, that shit is mine to take care of it she decides she wants to keep it. A baby is the consequence of 2 people getting together and deciding to have sex, not the consequence of a woman deciding not to have an abortion.

Thats all very well and good but not everyone thinks like you do or are willing to accept such heavy burdens. Everyone takes responsibility, some just do so in another way.

[Stumblingdrunk]

OMG WOMEN HAVE ALL THE POWER. LIFE IS NOT FAIR! You guys are a fucking joke