The Prenatal Holocaust

[Jeryhn]

So, the gist of this thread is that Moosey was so utterly shut down by the simple argument against the existence of an omniscient creator that he had to go and make a new thread to spout his shit using another hot-button topic?

Here's a protip Moosey: Life is not sacred. Hell, in many places, its not even valued. It is a product of random cosmological chance and the only reason why people aren't always killing each other (err, wait, what?) is because we enter into social contracts with one another in which we agree not to kill each other for the sake that not being dead is pretty convenient. This is something even a community college communication studies instructor could tell you.

Attributing such things such as the belief that every life has value to your faith or belief system is practically self-masturbation.

[Obev]

What is your definition of a Human?

A miserable little pile of secrets. But enough talk, have at you...

Checkmate, Christians.

... And sometimes the woman does not want to have a baby for whatever fucking reason. Again, women aren't your fucking baby incubators. Get that shit right in your heads. Women don't owe an explanation to anyone for their choices regarding their bodies. If I don't want to allow something to use my body as an incubator to grow, I don't fucking have to. Simple as that. I don't care if the damn thing is alive at conception or at 20 weeks. Means nothing to me, it isn't relevant to the question. No one can force me to sustain a parasite. If men could get pregnant we wouldn't even be having this conversation. It wouldn't be a debate.

Outlawing abortion will not stop abortions. Women will still find a way to not support the growth of a parasite they do not want to support. Abortions will still exist. They will always exist. Criminalizing abortion will not save babies, it will kill women.

Criminalizing abortion is a way for stupid Christians (& other religious people who like to push their values upon others) to punish women for doing something they don't agree with, and then call it "god's will" when the women sustain injury or die due to the unsafe procedures that will inevitably be performed even after the prohibition of the practice.

It's not about saving babies, its about controlling women, slut-shaming, and punishing the "wicked." Anyone who believes otherwise is foolish and naive.

I wish I could feminist fist-bump you through the internets. This, a thousand times this.

Furthermore I laugh at those who believe abortion to be a throwaway act. This is not an act that people enter into lightly. It's a serious medical procedure that ends a potential life. Women aren't popping abortions like cotton candy, Moosey. They're aborting fetuses when there's a serious goddamn reason: like they don't want to commit nine months and eighteen years of their lives to a parasite they never wanted, like they'll die if they carry it to term, like they'll pass on serious diseases to the child, ruining its life forever. Sometimes you gotta be cruel to be kind.

Let me guess, you think the morning after pill is ethnic cleansing as well? First time my partner and I had sex, the condom broke. Next morning we went and got the pill. Put me up there on the wall next to Pol Pot and the Armenian genocide.

[Greatguardian]

I didn't say they'd have to be our main form of sustenance. Consider them a delicacy.

If they grow up, they consume too many resources, and everyone suffers. If most of them are eaten, it's a non-issue.

I can't tell if this is a Modest Proposal joke or not since I am finding very few ways to set up the reference in a humorous fashion.

Already been done, though! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_modest_proposal

Count me in.

[Demosthenes11]

I pretty much agree with archi here. I think people do mental gymnastics to try and get around "human" and "life" definitions, but it's not really relevant to the discussion.

Abortion is something I would never want my partner to get, but that doesn't mean I don't think anyone should get one. That would be forcing my stance on the subject on other people. This is not a clear cut moral question.

And for pro-life individuals to be consistent, they must also contend the morning after pill is murder. I find this ridiculous.

[kuronosan]

Look, I don't think of women as baby incubators but I don't believe abortions are right (after a certain point).

It may sound a tad misogynistic, but if you don't want to have a baby, don't fuck without protection of any kind. If you want to fuck without protection, be prepared for the consequences.

Life shouldn't be full of get-out-of-jail-free cards just because you want to shun the responsibility of making poor choices. I don't care if you're a man or a woman. If you make a bad choice, you need to deal with the consequences, move forward, and learn from your mistakes. If you think an abortion is a viable solution to poor judgment (again, I am speaking of 'choice', not of rape) then a man should have a choice to say "fuck you raise the child on your own no child support".

Why is that fair? I don't know, perhaps because if a woman should be allowed to have complete choice as to what to do with her body and the man's child (again, if the situation is not from rape) then the man should have the same choice.

I mean, we're all about equality right? No? Well, fuck. Should have known better.

When people say "A woman should have a right to choose" what they really mean to say is "A woman should have a right to money if she keeps a child, and an abortion if she doesn't want to keep it".

What really should be happening is that women, men, and couples alike should all be allowed to choose what is best for themselves and for society regardless of gender, social status, or income. Abortions should not be a dial-a-solution for stupid choices. They should be a last resort if nothing else is available.

After all, if women aren't walking baby incubators, men aren't walking piggy banks.

[Milkster]

Look, I don't think of women as baby incubators but I don't believe abortions are right (after a certain point).

It may sound a tad misogynistic, but if you don't want to have a baby, don't fuck without protection of any kind. If you want to fuck without protection, be prepared for the consequences.

Life shouldn't be full of get-out-of-jail-free cards just because you want to shun the responsibility of making poor choices. I don't care if you're a man or a woman. If you make a bad choice, you need to deal with the consequences, move forward, and learn from your mistakes. If you think an abortion is a viable solution to poor judgment (again, I am speaking of 'choice', not of rape) then a man should have a choice to say "fuck you raise the child on your own no child support".

Why is that fair? I don't know, perhaps because if a woman should be allowed to have complete choice as to what to do with her body and the man's child (again, if the situation is not from rape) then the man should have the same choice.

I mean, we're all about equality right? No? Well, fuck. Should have known better.

When people say "A woman should have a right to choose" what they really mean to say is "A woman should have a right to money if she keeps a child, and an abortion if she doesn't want to keep it".

What really should be happening is that women, men, and couples alike should all be allowed to choose what is best for themselves and for society regardless of gender, social status, or income. Abortions should not be a dial-a-solution for stupid choices. They should be a last resort if nothing else is available.

After all, if women aren't walking baby incubators, men aren't walking piggy banks.

No form of contraception is 100% mind you. Abortions aren't quick, nor are they cheap. You just don't walk in one day and look at the menu and order a number 4. There's counseling that a woman must go through, alone with someone before you're allowed to get one. Would you rather a child be brought into this world, unwanted and neglected, end up in the overcrowded foster care system? The problem isn't the abortion, the problem is how we end up at the point couples are getting pregnant due to a lack of sexual health education. What about in the cases of rape?

MYTH: Women are using abortion as a method of birth control.
In fact, half of all women getting abortions report that contraception was used during the month they became pregnant.1 Some of these couples had used the method improperly; some had forgotten or neglected to use it on the particular occasion they conceived; and some had used a contraceptive that failed. No contraceptive method prevents pregnancy 100% of the time.
If abortion were used as a primary method of birth control, a typical woman would have at least two or three pregnancies per year - 30 or more during her lifetime. In fact, most women who have abortions have had no previous abortions (52%) or only one previous abortion (26%).5 Considering that most women are fertile for over 30 years, and that birth control is not perfect, the likelihood of having one or two unintended pregnancies is very high.
MYTH: Women have abortions for selfish or frivolous reasons.
The decision to have an abortion is rarely simple. Most women base their decision on several factors, the most common being lack of money and/or unreadiness to start or expand their families due to existing responsibilities. Many feel that the most responsible course of action is to wait until their situation is more suited to childrearing; 66% plan to have children when they are older, financially able to provide necessities for them, and/or in a supportive relationship with a partner so their children will have two parents.8 Others wanted to get pregnant but developed serious medical problems, learned that the fetus had severe abnormalities, or experienced some other personal crisis. About 13,000 women each year have abortions because they have become pregnant as a result of rape or incest.1
MYTH: Women are often forced into having abortions they do not really want.
Some women say that pressure from a husband, partner, or parent was one of several reasons they chose abortion, but only about 1% give that reason as the "most important" one in making their decision.9 Conversely, some women who do not want to continue their pregnancies are pressured to do so by family members, friends, or fear of social stigma. Pre-abortion options counseling is designed to determine whether a woman is fully comfortable with her abortion decision, and if she is not, she is encouraged to wait until she has had a chance to consider her options more fully.
MYTH: Many women come to regret their abortions later.
Research indicates that relief is the most common emotional response following abortion, and that psychological distress appears to be greatest before, rather than after, an abortion.
There are undoubtedly some women who, in hindsight, wish that they had made different choices, and the majority would prefer never to have become pregnant when the circumstances were not right for them. When a wanted pregnancy is ended (for medical reasons, for example) women may experience a sense of loss and grief. As with any major change or decision involving loss, a crisis later in life sometimes leads to a temporary resurfacing of sad feelings surrounding the abortion. Women at risk for poor post-abortion adjustment are those who do not get the support they need, or whose abortion decisions are actively opposed by people who are important to them.10 Learn more about post-abortion issues

http://www.prochoice.org/about_abort...women_who.html

[archibaldcrane]

Um, abortion, by definition, is a method of birth control. 100% of the women who have abortions are doing it to control whether they have birth or not. Calling that a myth is hilarious.

[Greatguardian]

I think it probably should have read "MYTH: Women use abortions as a substitute for birth control". The subsequent paragraph only makes sense when read that way.

[archibaldcrane]

And it's those types of mental gymnastics that bug me about this debate. Everyone is so uncomfortable about saying "yeah, killing humans is sometimes ok" that they go to ridiculous lengths to say "it's not really human", "it's not really birth control" - it's like, do you want me to get a fucking dictionary? Your semantics are terribad, and it makes me feel ashamed to be in your camp.

You want to kill some humans. IT'S LEGAL AND SUPPORTED BY THE MAJORITY OF CITIZENS. Own it.

[archibaldcrane]

I think it probably should have read "MYTH: Women use abortions as a substitute for birth control". The subsequent paragraph only makes sense when read that way.

Well

except that half of all women who have abortions weren't using ANY OTHER FORM OF BIRTH CONTROL that month - so obviously abortion is their only means to control whether they have pregnancies or not. Clearly, plenty of women are not using normal forms of birth control, and are getting abortions...so...

[kuronosan]

Abortions are fucking birth control by definition. Anything arguing otherwise is retarded. The question is, should it be a substitute for other types of birth control?

In other words, at what point do we draw a line and go "Okay, you can be this irresponsible and still get away with it" before everyone just starts doing whatever they want?

No form of contraception is 100% mind you.

If you don't want to have a baby, don't fuck.

Is that better?

[Alleya]

One thing I'm interested in hearing from the other side is how they think outlawing abortion again will change anything for the better.

It's certainly not going to stop abortions. It's just going to make them dangerous amateur stunts out of desperation. It's going to disproportionately burden the poor, and force women to carry children from rape and incest.

So where's the good in this again? More unwanted children being born into families that don't want or can't afford them? It seems like a lot of men thinking they're qualified to decide what's best for women. And what's best for women, of course, as always, is anything that strips away any form of autonomy and places sole blame on her for all her problems.

[Milkster]

I guess that's why people call them contraceptives now and not birth control. If they would have used Contraceptive instead of birth control would you be fine?

[Dotsudoku]

Well

except that half of all women who have abortions weren't using ANY OTHER FORM OF BIRTH CONTROL that month - so obviously abortion is their only means to control whether they have pregnancies or not. Clearly, plenty of women are not using normal forms of birth control, and are getting abortions...so...

You're an intelligent person. You must be aware of what that line actually meant.

Myth: "Baby, lets have sex." "Alright, grab a condom." "Don't worry about it, we don't need one, we can just have an abortion after."

They're not saying that an abortion isn't a means to control birth, they're saying people don't typically make the conscious decision to rely on an abortion to prevent procreation.

[Chun Liroy]

Why does a gay guy care so much about abortions? Serious question.

[kuronosan]

Now hang on, I said nothing about blaming the woman for everything. Most of my post was sarcasm. I simply said if you're going to put the burden on the woman to choose absolutely every aspect of what she does with her body, then she needs to keep the man's feelings in mind as well. After all, what if the man in question wants to keep the child? Again, I am speaking of cases that are NOT rape-related.

I believe a woman has a right to choose, but I also believe that careful consideration should be taken with all involved to determine if it is what is best. If the woman's life is in danger, the child's life is in danger (now or later on), or there is a chance of serious physical, mental, or emotional damage, then by all means do as you will (within reason).

If all you want is to avoid having a baby then you shouldn't have sat on someone's dick in the first place (I have to keep stressing, for some reason, that I am speaking of non-rape cases).

I'm sorry, I just wholeheartedly believe that if you aren't prepared for the potential consequences your actions might have you should not be acting. It's called being mature and responsible. If you believe that only a woman should decide what to do and not the couple or family or whoever else the decision might effect (on an immediate level, not the country) then I do not agree with that mindset.

Sex is a two-way street. So is communication. So is the supportive-process. I think if the first resort you decide to take is abortion because you feel it's your right to decide that and you don't take your partner's feelings into consideration you're a selfish bitch. Simple as that.

And before you start, this is speaking from somebody who took his best friend to get an abortion because she "decided" for herself that she didn't want a baby. It ended a three-year relationship with her then-boyfriend (who wanted to keep the child and wasn't offered "a choice" or even a chance to give "his say") and now she's miserable because of it.

Not all women are the same, mind you, but then again neither are all the choices we make.

[Milkster]

This just in, you can only care about issues if they directly effect you based on your sexuality, gender, sex, race, socioeconomic status, region, beliefs and age.

Why did all kinds of people participate in the Civil Right's movement? Why do men fight for women to have equal rights? Why do heterosexuals argue in favor of LGBTQ citizens and people? Why do Americans care what happens around the world, that couldn't effect them?

Stop being so obtuse, you really are the worse. Hop off the dick.

[Alleya]

My post wasn't directed at anyone in particular. But,

Not all women are the same, mind you, but then again neither are all the choices we make.

Which is precisely why your string of generalizations and judgments about women and how "they" make choices and "exclude" men from the process are insultingly smug.

I find it very interesting how you whine about the men not being given a say, but excuse men from their share of the "sitting on someone's dick" decision. It's a travesty if a woman doesn't seek a man's approval for a procedure done solely to her body, but it's entirely her fault for sleeping with the guy.

[Ashmada]

And it's those types of mental gymnastics that bug me about this debate. Everyone is so uncomfortable about saying "yeah, killing humans is sometimes ok" that they go to ridiculous lengths to say "it's not really human", "it's not really birth control" - it's like, do you want me to get a fucking dictionary? Your semantics are terribad, and it makes me feel ashamed to be in your camp.

You want to kill some humans. IT'S LEGAL AND SUPPORTED BY THE MAJORITY OF CITIZENS. Own it.

Not used to such simplistic arguments from you, Arch.
Yes, killing isn't always murder. We get that... but "not giving birth" isn't "killing" either. It's "not giving birth".

[Greatguardian]

Not used to such simplistic arguments from you, Arch.
Yes, killing isn't always murder. We get that... but "not giving birth" isn't "killing" either. It's "not giving birth".

You're confusing killing humans with murder.