The Prenatal Holocaust

[RKenshin]

There is a reason male abortions exist.

Men have no right to tell a woman what to do with her body. But likewise, the issue Kuro has, is that men seemingly don't have any control over whether or not they will be saddled with parental responsibility for 18 years while women do.

The thing is, in some states they do, so this is a non-issue. They can't tell a woman to abort the fetus, but they can have a male abortion and relinquish all rights and responsibilities with regards to the child. The rules concerning the timeframe for this are generally the same as with a real abortion. It's not the 9 month gestation that is being discussed here, but the 18 years afterwards where the child is the responsibility of both parents that is.

This is another topic that is often ignored, but IMO still rather important to this discussion.

I've personally never heard of a 'male abortion', but assuming what you said is true then I think that's a step in the right direction. But in any case, I completely agree with what you said.

Consenting adults should never be forced into such a major responsibility.

The woman will always have the final decision on whether or not to go through on a pregnancy, and rightfully so, but the man should also at least be allowed a choice on responsibility in fatherhood as well (up to a point, of course... and varying situations).

[Greatguardian]

This is another topic that is often ignored, but IMO still rather important to this discussion.

I've personally never heard of a 'male abortion', but assuming what you said is true then I think that's a step in the right direction. But in any case, I completely agree with what you said.

Consenting adults should never be forced into such a major responsibility.

The woman will always have the final decision on whether or not to go through on a pregnancy, and rightfully so, but the man should also at least be allowed a choice on responsibility in fatherhood as well (up to a point, of course... and varying situations).

They were still very rare when I last read about them and I'm having trouble digging up the articles now but I'll keep at it.

As of now, most laws on the subject only refer to men having the right to require notification of and consent to an abortion.

If I can't find any of my previous source material and am incorrect in believing that this has already been addressed in some places, then it is most certainly a problem that is almost always overlooked in these discussions. The decision whether or not to terminate a fetus during the 9-month gestation wherein it is a part of a woman's body is one that should be left to the woman. However, both parents should have the right to terminate their respective parental responsibilities if they do not feel that they would be able to adequately provide for a child for 18+ years. At that point it is no longer a matter of intruding on a woman's body.

[Deadgye]

And it's those types of mental gymnastics that bug me about this debate. Everyone is so uncomfortable about saying "yeah, killing humans is sometimes ok" that they go to ridiculous lengths to say "it's not really human", "it's not really birth control" - it's like, do you want me to get a fucking dictionary? Your semantics are terribad, and it makes me feel ashamed to be in your camp.

You want to kill some humans. IT'S LEGAL AND SUPPORTED BY THE MAJORITY OF CITIZENS. Own it.

I'm always so confounded when people assert that killing is the same thing as murder, and that it's always wrong no matter what. We kill all the fucking time. We kill plants. We kill animals. We kill bugs. We kill humans. People have to accept the fact that we're all hypocrites.

Why is killing a cow more acceptable that killing a human. Why is killing a fetus less acceptable than killing a tape worm. Why is having sex with a 15 year old less acceptable now that it was a couple hundred years ago. It's because we only allow things (ethics and morals up in here) that are within a standard deviation of society's average. This is why we fight with people from different societies, because their norm is outside of our standard deviation. There is no wrong. There is no right. There is only perspective and opinion.

I kind of ranted.. but it just annoys me when people think they can make blanket statements and that stuff isn't situational. Making all abortion illegal is akin to making self defense illegal. Of course, I'm also a hypocrite when it comes to everything.

[Greatguardian]

Whoa whoa whoa this ain't the ephebophilia thread

[archibaldcrane]

This is mental gymnastics you're speaking against. It's not "live outside the womb", it's viability outside the womb assuming the best health care. Right now it's about 20-26 weeks depending on several factors and the obgyn. I don't think a baby has ever been born at 20 weeks and lived, though correct me if I'm wrong. You're not so dense to not understand the difference between a premie at 20 weeks unable to live under the best healthcare and NICU and a full term one day old baby being thrown in a trash can.

Once you've pulled them out of the womb, you're already not providing them with the best medical care.

Also can we stop pretending that all abortions don't kill the fetus before extraction? It's not like the fetus is teleported from the womb to a sterile environment - the process of abortion sometimes, if not usually, kills the fetus - not just from exposure, but from how it's removed.

I know that people are still terrified of seeing themselves as killers when they choose to have an abortion, but you are directly responsible for the death of that fetus. Own it. Once you come to terms with the fact that it is human, you are killing it, and you are ok with that, you will feel much more liberated and secure in your belief, as opposed to getting all defensive with people saying things like "Abortion stops a beating heart".

[hey]

http://youtu.be/zk6gOeggViw
i'll just leave this here.

Huh, i never would have even considered that, but it does make a ton of sense.

[Indeed]

I do believe that there should be some different laws that deal with men relinquishing parental rights. A man shouldn't be voiceless entirely when it comes to being obligated to support a child that he doesn't want. Granted, he should also be permanently stripped of all parental rights and all ability to fight a fit mother for those rights. I don't think a man should have the right to opt out of the first 5 years, and then just show up and say I'm ready to be a dad even if you don't want me around or the kid has a new father figure now. Abortion is forever, so men need to realize that dumping a baby onto someone else's shoulders is also a very serious and permanent decision. Except, of course, in cases where the mother becomes unfit and they choose to step up, or if the mother accepts their late change of heart.

[hey]

I know that people are still terrified of seeing themselves as killers when they choose to have an abortion, but you are directly responsible for the death of that fetus. Own it. Once you come to terms with the fact that it is human, you are killing it, and you are ok with that, you will feel much more liberated and secure in your belief, as opposed to getting all defensive with people saying things like "Abortion stops a beating heart".

Causing someone's death isn't always the same as killing them.

[Greatguardian]

I do believe that there should be some different laws that deal with men relinquishing parental rights. A man shouldn't be voiceless entirely when it comes to being obligated to support a child that he doesn't want. Granted, he should also be permanently stripped of all parental rights and all ability to fight a fit mother for those rights. I don't think a man should have the right to opt out of the first 5 years, and then just show up and say I'm ready to be a dad even if you don't want me around or the kid has a new father figure now. Abortion is forever, so men need to realize that dumping a baby onto someone else's shoulders is also a very serious and permanent decision. Except, of course, in cases where the mother becomes unfit and they choose to step up, or if the mother accepts their late change of heart.

Clearly. If you terminate your paternal rights, it should function as if you do not have a child at all. It is not like you can get a normal abortion and then turn around 5 years later and decide you want to take your kid to school. They are already dead, silly billy. You cannot take a decomposed fetus to school. Think of how many health codes that would violate.

[Niiro]

This is mental gymnastics you're speaking against. It's not "live outside the womb", it's viability outside the womb assuming the best health care. Right now it's about 20-26 weeks depending on several factors and the obgyn. I don't think a baby has ever been born at 20 weeks and lived, though correct me if I'm wrong. You're not so dense to not understand the difference between a premie at 20 weeks unable to live under the best healthcare and NICU and a full term one day old baby being thrown in a trash can.

You're missing the point.

A 20 week old fetus is just as dependent on others as a newborn. You yourself just made the point that it's an arbitrary measure because it changes depending on available health care quality.

Deciding when a fetus is a "person" or when it should no longer be legal to abort based on that is meaningless.

[hey]

You're missing the point.

A 20 week old fetus is just as dependent on others as a newborn. You yourself just made the point that it's an arbitrary measure because it changes depending on available health care quality.

Deciding when a fetus is a "person" or when it should no longer be legal to abort based on that is meaningless.

Once it is born, it can get help in surviving from other people who actually want to help it. An unborn fetus can only be allowed to survive by one specific person, and no one else, no matter how much they want to, can do anything to help it, if the mother refuses.

[Deadgye]

Causing someone's death isn't always the same as killing them.

It's close enough. The only reason to differentiate is for a. the law and b. to feel better about it. Besides the obvious law related aspect, I wonder why people put so much into differentiating the two. Although, I also wonder if I'd feel like I have to make that differentiation if I found myself in a similar situation. I've never been the reason a person died, and I can't see it happening anytime soon. Sometimes I think I should join the military so that I can understand what it means to take the life of another person, but I can't see myself willing to kill for my country unless it was threatened like in WW2 or something.

... I need to stop ranting.

[Tyche]

Once you've pulled them out of the womb, you're already not providing them with the best medical care.

This is absolutely incorrect. Fetuses have this nasty habit of just coming out because the mother cannot provide this care for a multitude of reasons. But you know what I meant, I don't really know why you even replied in the manner in which you did. You know what fetal viability is and what it means, and it isn't some form of Survivor for infants.

[Tyche]

You're missing the point.

A 20 week old fetus is just as dependent on others as a newborn. You yourself just made the point that it's an arbitrary measure because it changes depending on available health care quality.

Deciding when a fetus is a "person" or when it should no longer be legal to abort based on that is meaningless.

No, it's not. If its not viable, no amount of care helps it. This is what viability means. If its believed that the fetus is viable, you cannot abort (save some circumstances)

[Tyche]

The arbitrary measure isn't the viability. It's the percentage chance of survival.

[Niiro]

So as medical advancements continue the limits on abortion will become more and more restrictive.

I see no flaw in that logic.

[Greatguardian]

disregard, sementricks and I can't read

[Tyche]

So as medical advancements continue the limits on abortion will become more and more restrictive.

I see no flaw in that logic.

This is exactly right! I don't disagree with archi, I just thought his statement was ridiculous. Gestational age with 50% survivability will continue to get lower, causing harsher restrictions on the timespan to get an abortion. At least as long as the current standard exists.

[Tyche]

I'm pretty sure he already stated just 2 posts up that no amount of medical care will help a fetus that isn't viable.

This is kinda wrong, I mean, you can abort a fetus that has a 30% chance of viability. 30% ain't bad, some cancer patients would take 30% and run with it. As I said, the "50%" is arbitrary.

[Niiro]

I'm pretty sure he already stated just 2 posts up that no amount of medical care will help a fetus that isn't viable.

Whether or not a fetus is viable is dependent on medical care.