The future of MMO's

[Takiwaki]

For a minute I thought we were on the verge of a breakthrough in this future of mmo thread lol!, where we were gonna find a way to do away with progression being shown in the tried and true numerical format. Be it the level of a skill or the level of a character its all the same really. It really doesn't matter in what way said levels are obtained either, quests, monster grinding, crafting. Rhyis had me all excited for a brief moment but then =/

Imagine if there was an mmo that was skill based enough that learning to weild a specific weapon or skill required us to actually be proficient enough in the usage, by taking into consideration timing, consistency etc. Like in a fighting game or fps. Maybe have a trophy system to show progress by having to beat certain quests in game. No numbers for levels or skill levels.

Would this be boring or even accepted in a MMO? I think the problem with this game is that the learning curve will be very drastic.

The battle system would have to be very intricate and def not hot bar based.

What you guys think lol

[Grey Jorildyn]

I think we'd need a Wii-sword and a dance pad to pull it off, but sure?

Moving too far from the current design is difficult. Heck, moving even one inch to the left or right seems to create huge issues in subscription numbers (or at least that's what they'd like us to think). The genre needs to evolve into something else, but it has to do so over time. It cannot happen overnight. We could certainly talk about removing the quantification of things like levels, but it still has to be replaced with that something else. Even in the real world we cannot do with some measure of performance. Cars have horsepower (a number), people earn degrees (a piece of paper that certifies you know something), and we know how cold it is outside by looking at the temperature (several different scales for this). It's an age-old problem.

[Charismatic]

I would personally rather see an MMO where your character itself does NOT progress. Perhaps you could get better armors or whatever with skills and such on them (that could be potentially lost ala EVE) but the character itself would not progress.

No items? Doesn't matter how long you've played, you're no better than the guy who just created his character.


Or if there is some type of character progression... it would either mean very little or just provide access to places and items and w/e

[Arelian]

Now you're trying to move away from the RPG genre entirely. As long as we stick with RPGs, we're going to be confined by much of the same things that confine tabletop games. Numbers are and will remain important to the genre. Whether they be behind-the-scenes or laid out in plain text for you. Hell, any kind of video game requires numbers to even function.

Edit: Guess I should be a bit more clear about why character progression is necessary. Character progression is the simplest, and best way sometimes, to provide positive feedback to a player. If you constantly inundate a player with "cool" items they quickly stop thinking those items are unique. If you don't reward players at all, why would they want to play in your game? The easiest example of this being: A player at a D&D table does some excellent and off-the-cuff roleplaying that's unique to this specific game (as in, a lot of the players aren't doing it). It's in the GMs best interest to reward that player. Obviously this is a bit harder to stretch in an MMORPG environment, since you'll rarely be doing things the devs didn't intend, and even rarer will those things have a positive impact on the world. But if you didn't get a basic form of reward for doing, well, anything in an MMORPG why would you keep playing? A community does not develop overnight, just the same as powerful inter-player connections can take time to build.

[Qalbert]

In a game with experience and character levels it is manditory to progress your character through combative measures. In a game with absolutely zero character leveling, only skill point progression, you can play however you damn well please assuming it's within the limits of the game design. Instead of the focus being simply learning a skill via leveling up, it becomes about mastering skills. Surely you can wrap your head around this.



Yes. EVE uses such a system I am talking about. So have a few other MMOs, but not many. Most go the EQ route. Both are viable systems, I just prefer the skill route as I find it opens up the game in ways character levels cannot follow. Although I realize this is an opinion not many share.

I am almost 100% positive that Dark and Light (which admittedly failed hardcore) allowed leveling through crafting and exploring alone. Regardless, unless you make it passive leveling like in EVE wouldn't adding an exp reward to those things, like in DnL, accomplish your point of level doing whatever the fuck, without having to completely abolish level progression? Because whether you call it experience or skill points, you are still doing repetitious actions to progress, so why try to wrap it up as something other than what it is? Even in EVE when you don't have actual levels, you have a skill point total, which serves a similar purpose. I'm all for changing things up, I just don't see how what you're talking about is actually changing anything, it sounds like you just want to be able to level by crafting 5000 pairs of iron boots, which is fine, whatever, but it's hardly reinventing the wheel.

[Rhyis.]

It's similar but not the same. It's like trying to say a strategy RPG and a regular turn-based RPG are the same because they both accomplish fights in a turn based manner. But they aren't the same. That's why we have these sub classes within the genre to begin with. The focus of the game is changed by taking levels away. The way you play is different. How you approach the game is different. You're still not getting it and really I don't care to explain it anymore. Just play UO/EVE or something.

Now you're trying to move away from the RPG genre entirely. As long as we stick with RPGs, we're going to be confined by much of the same things that confine tabletop games. Numbers are and will remain important to the genre. Whether they be behind-the-scenes or laid out in plain text for you. Hell, any kind of video game requires numbers to even function.

Edit: Guess I should be a bit more clear about why character progression is necessary. Character progression is the simplest, and best way sometimes, to provide positive feedback to a player. If you constantly inundate a player with "cool" items they quickly stop thinking those items are unique. If you don't reward players at all, why would they want to play in your game? The easiest example of this being: A player at a D&D table does some excellent and off-the-cuff roleplaying that's unique to this specific game (as in, a lot of the players aren't doing it). It's in the GMs best interest to reward that player. Obviously this is a bit harder to stretch in an MMORPG environment, since you'll rarely be doing things the devs didn't intend, and even rarer will those things have a positive impact on the world. But if you didn't get a basic form of reward for doing, well, anything in an MMORPG why would you keep playing? A community does not develop overnight, just the same as powerful inter-player connections can take time to build.

Action RPGs are built around the idea of not progressing your character and only giving you item upgrades. Think Zelda/Monster Hunter/etc. I'm not sure if MMOs could also go down this road as I can't think of a game that does this. Although I do know there's a Monster Hunter MMO coming out itself, so maybe it will in the future.

So while all RPGs have a level of D&D dice rolls being thrown in the background, the degree and amount of things effected by dice roll can be changed by whoever is developing the game... The perfect example of this is the dodge roll added to GW2. There is no math equation for that dodge being thrown in the game. If you hit the dodge button in time you will dodge and that's all there is to it. While most other MMORPGs have a hard dodge check simply by standing there that the game automatically does for you.

I do think, as the tech gets better, we'll see more and more action elements being added MMORPGs. It's inevitable.

[Qalbert]

How does the focus change if you still progress your character by grinding, whether grinding means combat or crafting? Either way it's the same goddamn thing and nothing is actually changing.

[Qalbert]

I would personally rather see an MMO where your character itself does NOT progress. Perhaps you could get better armors or whatever with skills and such on them (that could be potentially lost ala EVE) but the character itself would not progress.

No items? Doesn't matter how long you've played, you're no better than the guy who just created his character.


Or if there is some type of character progression... it would either mean very little or just provide access to places and items and w/e

Would be very interested in seeing how this would pan out, as it would then require a far greater focus on providing fresh and fun content, as opposed to churning out another couple hundred hours of grinding for a new tier of gear.

[Takiwaki]

The thing is right now story based progress, like in Zelda etc, just will not sustain long enough. The use of levels help sustain repetition, and reuse of content. If there is a way to mix in reuse of content (not grind) with story based progress maybe we can get somewhere lol, A totall new type of game engine where content can be patched in on a weekly basis would be able to do something like this.

[Rhyis.]

I could easily see Monster Hunter become a MMORPG straight in, with no changes to game play at all (no level or skill systems). Very easily in fact. And people already play that game to ridiculous levels, and along side other players. The only thing needing to be added is a permanent world in which to play in.

[arus2001]

Zelda technically does have progression, though, through the acquisition of heart containers for more life, sword upgrades that do more damage, and different armors that make you take less damage (or blue and red ring in the older ones). You can try and fool people into implying its different by adding action or an FPS element (a la TERA), but without the numbers game, yeah, you're kinda stepping away from part of what makes RPGs what they are and risking a particularly shallow environment. If I wanted some Soul Calibur Online persistent world where I could run around and see a bunch of bouncing Ivys, while a certain slice of heaven in the T&A, isn't much of a step beyond a standard match service if the primary goal is to just fight. What is gained in such? The ability to jump people low on health in another fight? You also travel back to the issue of lag/latency where, in the absence of numbers, twitch gameplay can simply favor those with better connections or higher end rigs.

Maybe it's easier to look at numbers as sanity checks. In a freeform RP environment, it's easy for someone to step in and declare themselves Goku, the strongest Saiyan in the universe, blahblahblah. In rare cases, maybe this guy does have the ability to back up his trash talk. Most people just wind up ignoring him, but if said guy is really just a level 10 scrub, a level 50 could march along and shut him up, or dare I say, offer some humility if RPing is a genuine concern. While I'm not a fan of griefing or one-sided PvP, offering players a means to better police themselves is a nice thing, and I'm not just talking about an ignore button. You need an anchor point somewhere. One is less than two, so on and so forth. It's more of a standardized logic while something like an elemental relationship chart or plain ol' rock/paper/scissors can be a creative step beyond that.

[Arelian]

It's similar but not the same. It's like trying to say a strategy RPG and a regular turn-based RPG are the same because they both accomplish fights in a turn based manner. But they aren't the same. That's why we have these sub classes within the genre to begin with. The focus of the game is changed by taking levels away. The way you play is different. How you approach the game is different. You're still not getting it and really I don't care to explain it anymore. Just play UO/EVE or something.

Action RPGs are built around the idea of not progressing your character and only giving you item upgrades. Think Zelda/Monster Hunter/etc. I'm not sure if MMOs could also go down this road as I can't think of a game that does this. Although I do know there's a Monster Hunter MMO coming out itself, so maybe it will in the future.

So while all RPGs have a level of D&D dice rolls being thrown in the background, the degree and amount of things effected by dice roll can be changed by whoever is developing the game... The perfect example of this is the dodge roll added to GW2. There is no math equation for that dodge being thrown in the game. If you hit the dodge button in time you will dodge and that's all there is to it. While most other MMORPGs have a hard dodge check simply by standing there that the game automatically does for you.

I do think, as the tech gets better, we'll see more and more action elements being added MMORPGs. It's inevitable.

I, personally, wouldn't qualify Zelda as an RPG but I still see where you're coming from. I honestly think Monster Hunter is the exception to the rule here, and that's simply because it is still incredibly grindy. If you've ever sat down and played a MH game, you'll know you simply aren't doing much vertical progression for a very long time (Unless you're incredibly good at the game, but skill only takes you so far). There are also still levels in MH games, they're just not attributed to character power. Well, they kinda are. You have a Hunter Rank that allows you to access higher tiers of monster fights, and to rank up you usually have to finish a certain amount of missions. Now, the assumption on the developers end here is that by the end of Hunter Rank x, you'll have y-level gear.

I also agree that as tech gets better we'll see more and more action elements coming into the MMO market.

[Rhyis.]

Oh absolutely MH is super grindy. Upgrading your weapons is literally necessary to even damage monsters as you progress in the game. Want to kill Diablos with a low tier weapon? Cool story bro, the game won't allow you to do that shit. There's always another element you can grind in a RPG. Experience and levels aren't mandatory to keep people interested.

[Arelian]

I guess the point I was making was there are still hidden levels in MH games. The more I think about it, too, the less I like calling MH an RPG. To me it's an RPG in the same way any video game is, you're assuming a given role. Genre classifications are just confusing, though, so I'm gonna stop worrying about it. I firmly believe character progression is 100% mandatory to people staying interested. I do think a skill system is infinitely better, and more satisfying, than a straight level system. You're given more freedom to do what you'd like with that character. I'd love, love, love to see a system that uses a derivative of EVE's skills combined with GW2 or Tera's combat/gameplay. Wouldn't that be sweet?

[Rhyis.]

EVE's one of those games that, on paper, is one of the best concepts ever conceived but the execution of said concept fell flat on it's face. An open universe MMO where you can travel the stars on your very own custom built spaceship should be beyond awesome. They just made the gameplay overly complicated and unforgiving. Shame really. But yeah, there are lots of good concepts in failed MMOs and I'd really like new games to try and attempt to incorporate some of those ideas.

I mean, Warhammer failed crazy hard but everybody seems to be taking their dynamic public quest idea (Rift/GW2). Which is great. PQs are an awesome idea. They just weren't done properly in WAR. No reason not to take the idea into your own game just because WAR sucks.

[Inactive]

I don't get why everyone is trying to reinvent the wheel here when it comes to MMO's. I, and I'm assuming most of you, don't need some drastic new change of gameplay and mechanics to find a game fun and engaging.. which is all we're really looking for here.

Character progression be it through levels, merits, gear, or skillups is what defines the genre (for me at least). Just find a happy medium between WoW's extreme casualness, and FFXI's old grind. Give me FFXI's single character model (having to have alts is dumb), WoW's controls and fluidity, a multitude of events to do while leveling and at the cap, and something reminiscent of FFXI's old community. All the minor details are where you can get creative, but progression and a lot of events is what keeps people logging in day in and day out, and lately games have been lacking in both those departments.

[arus2001]

Maybe I'm just cynical, but I can't remember these golden age communities of the old days. People are people, and there were assholes who were vocally annoying back then and still seemed to get by, even thrive.

[Rhyis.]

Assholes are key to a community imo. Gotta have a villain. The issue comes from when the assholes are the norm, not the exception.

[Grey Jorildyn]

I don't get why everyone is trying to reinvent the wheel here when it comes to MMO's. I, and I'm assuming most of you, don't need some drastic new change of gameplay and mechanics to find a game fun and engaging.. which is all we're really looking for here.

Character progression be it through levels, merits, gear, or skillups is what defines the genre (for me at least). Just find a happy medium between WoW's extreme casualness, and FFXI's old grind. Give me FFXI's single character model (having to have alts is dumb), WoW's controls and fluidity, a multitude of events to do while leveling and at the cap, and something reminiscent of FFXI's old community. All the minor details are where you can get creative, but progression and a lot of events is what keeps people logging in day in and day out, and lately games have been lacking in both those departments.

Agreed. I am a proponent of the genre slowing down again and recapturing the meaning of actions. I'd like to see slower and more meaningful leveling. Raids that are more challenging, memorable, and fun. Stuff like that. That's not what we've been getting, and instead are just dealing with WoW-clone #247.

[arus2001]

I'll disagree on there being a need for them, but too many do indeed ruin things.