The future of MMO's

[Rhyis.]

You people never had a single jerk guild that pissed off the rest of the server, which resulted in having the rest of the server to join arms and battle over whatever mechanics the game allows you to battle over? Hell, that was basically my entire FFXI HNM experience. Years of NA and JP players duking it out for claims, pissing in each others cornflakes, while gaining even more comradery amongst the NA players because of the drama between the two opposing factions.

I'm not saying the game should promote asshatery. That's bad for everybody, as everyone will then participate. I'm saying drama is going to happen regardless of what online game you're playing, mechanics can always be turned against somebody else. It's simply better if that drama is coming from an external source and not an internal one, within reason obviously. It promotes intrigue and interest. Because after all is said and done, the only thing you're going to remember about the game is who your friends were and who pissed you off. Everything in the middle will be completely forgotten.

[arus2001]

I disagree, but drama just tends to draw an eye roll from me long before any interest.

In the end, while it's nice to have tools like blacklists, mutes, or the general choice to avoid playing with a particular person, the ideal situation would involve cultivating an environment where none are needed. It's not about sitting in a circle singing cumbaya. It's about adequately giving players focus and making matters not meant to be competitive remain as such.

Even when it comes to simple things like resource gathering, it's funny seeing people having different philosophies. Some think, "They got to that node first, they can have it..." and then you'd get, "I DON'T CARE IF YOU WERE HERE FIRST, I NEED THAT SHIT SO I WILL MINE OVERTOP YOU!" Overall, this issue can arise depending on things like node distribution, how quickly they spawn, and how needed the resource particularly is. If I wanted to be bitchy critical, no game has really struck a good balance here, as one person can pretty much drain an area unless the environment and/or monsters complicate a circuit. I did like an approach Rift took in making all monsters harvestable much like you might expect of skinning. Metal/Rock-type mobs could be mined. Plantoids could be harvested. Their yields would reflect local zone items. This system wasn't perfect, though, since it was added later and there weren't really good concentrations of certain mobs to make the situation much better than gathering.

Now, this is a pretty basic activity, rarely involving any kind of rare loot. Yet still it can get people acting like dicks. I saw in Tera that could party members could collectively gather at a node and yield more results. I find that's progress. Actually, I'd say remove the party requirement altogether. That way everyone can try to get what they want. Sure, professional gatherers (or bots) may not like the added potential market saturation, but if we're also being honest, money making/farming is most often viewed as a hassle to players and is one of those activities that almost universally favors having more time on your hands. Yeah, some may go on to bicker that it's more about efficiently using time, but that's only really a stable argument if you're interacting largely with NPCs. I recall trying to play the cursed market back in XI back in the day. While it was nice when HQs cooperated, more often you were breaking even. And even if you did HQ, enter the market insensitive asshat that crashes it because THEY MUST SELL NOW.

Things only get worse the more people you start having to involve, especially when they feel they have something to lose like camping HNMs or seeing that first chapeau in a year, only to realize you're 5th in line. Yeah, you may feel good when you finally get it, but you can also feel better when people stop kicking you in the balls. I don't play games to get kicked in the balls. I don't want to kick other people in the balls, either. I also know some people will proceed to try and take advantage of me for that fact, and the end result is either do nothing or flip my asshole switch and try to run 'em off. I don't like doing that, though.

[Arelian]

I hate to go back to it again (Okay, I really don't) but GW2 has "private" nodes. When you harvest a gathering node, it still exists for other players. You cannot physically steal a node from another player.

[arus2001]

That's an alternative, yeah. I'm sure someone somewhere wanted to bitch about how such "instancing" would hurt the game, though.

[Lucavi]

You people never had a single jerk guild that pissed off the rest of the server, which resulted in having the rest of the server to join arms and battle over whatever mechanics the game allows you to battle over? Hell, that was basically my entire FFXI HNM experience. Years of NA and JP players duking it out for claims, pissing in each others cornflakes, while gaining even more comradery amongst the NA players because of the drama between the two opposing factions.

I'm not saying the game should promote asshatery. That's bad for everybody, as everyone will then participate. I'm saying drama is going to happen regardless of what online game you're playing, mechanics can always be turned against somebody else. It's simply better if that drama is coming from an external source and not an internal one, within reason obviously. It promotes intrigue and interest. Because after all is said and done, the only thing you're going to remember about the game is who your friends were and who pissed you off. Everything in the middle will be completely forgotten.

No. Wrong. XI was great because at the time it came out, there was nothing better, and by the time there was something better, you didn't want to give up the friends you made and the experiences you shared. For all the bluster that people spout, the end-game drama that resulted from so many shitty systems was not a good thing, and if it was so good, then go back to XI and enjoy it there, because its still there, and its still just as shitty. Hell, you've got a rippin' hot thread in the XI forums right now about the same bullshit fleehacking and GM account banning that went down in 2009. Its all there, waiting for you if you loved it so goddamn much.

For the rest of us, there's the future.

There will be plenty of asshattery in GW2 through trolls and plenty through WvWvW PVP, and through regular PVP. The game's instanced PVP is nearly identical to WoW, with the major exception being the completely even slate in terms of gear, so there will be plenty of people that are simply flat-out better than others due to either skill or to abusing the flavor mechanics of the day, and they will be assholes.

We don't need assholes in our gear systems, we don't need assholes in our boss fights, we don't need assholes when gear drops, we don't need assholes while leveling up, we don't need assholes trying to gank us because we got to a crafting node before them, and we certainly don't need assholes preventing us from advancing in our game. You are a literal fool to suggest otherwise, "thrill" of drama be damned.

[Rhyis.]

Lol, did you just tell me what I liked about a game was wrong? The reason I quit, and would never go back to FFXI, is because the game itself was terrible. The game play was terrible. All the experiences I had in the game are over with. Anything I liked and kept me intrigued enough to continue playing at all is 6 years long gone. Which was exactly my point in the previous post.

... lol "No. Wrong." Christ.


FYI, GW2 will have a different kind of drama that FFXI could never produce. It'll have the competitive rivalry of RvR that I've already experienced in DAoC and WAR at great length. This level of game play breeds all kinds of disdain towards the rivaling faction (server in this case). There are going to be specific players, guilds, and moments that will stand out for that annoyance, and that'll work vice versa as well. And all that will be a good thing. It'll be the reason why you'll keep going back to RvR, to stomp the fools that annoy you. That's the nature of the system. To breed hatred for your enemy and comradery for your allies.

[GoggleHead]

Relevant: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/arti...rs-Life-for-Me

[arus2001]

tl;dr version: "After exploiting some shitty WoW game mechanics that kept people from fighting back and laughing with my friends about it, some PvP happened on a PvP server. Including, but not limited to, ganking people who couldn't fight back."

[GoggleHead]

Seeing what you want to see and nothing else. Good job.

[arus2001]

Writing what he wanted to write to justify being an asshat, particularly with no evidence of these happy posters.

Conceptually, "spicing things up" is all well and good. That's probably the positive you're trying to take from it, at least. Not everyone is going to enjoy having a method of transit hijacked, and in general, overleveled people (or a group of them) picking on those who can't hope to fight back isn't productive. It should never be a matter of urging people to quit, either in frustration for the night, or permanently in dropping their sub (Something Aion got hit with dealing with their rogue twink epidemic). It is very much possible for the NPC element to offer spontaneous variety without griefing. It's just up to devs of a given game to make it happen.

/inb4carebearn00bfag

[GoggleHead]

So basically you want game developers to make Strong AI.

Got it.

[arus2001]

I'm sure someone more versed in GW2 can step in and chatter about their interpretation of zone events. Rift had similar, which basically added to the rift/invasion mechanic. In other words, the game occasionally gave you things to do besides quest, craft, or whatever. You didn't have to do it, and for the most part, it wouldn't screw you over if you opted not to and at least paid attention to roaming mob packs heading for wardstones. It was, however, a voluntary stab at variety.

It could get more complex on PvP servers, but the nice thing about that distinction is the choice to make yourself available for getting ganked. Not all games, like Aion, allow for that choice and the options are to basically tough it out or not play.

[Rhyis.]

I'm trying to figure out why the writer keeps calling himself a "griefer". "Griefing" on a PvP server is just PvP. There's no special name for it. You're just killing people that the game expects you to kill. That's generally the entire objective of a PvP server... To murder everybody and nowhere is safe.

Large scale impromptu battles over meaninglessly tracks of land (or in this case, on boats) though can lead to good fun for everybody. What the writer did was not wrong in any way, shape, or form. He just initiated some PvP. If he was playing DAoC, what he did was essentially a daily occurrence. It was the purpose of the game.

[arus2001]

I'd say the "problem" was starting in an environment where the expected traveler would be unable to fight back. And if I'm remembering earlier WoW right, people riding that boat would've been somewhere in the mid-30s, maybe low-40s. This goes back to an earlier critique I made on when asking for help is no guarantee that you'd actually receive it, especially with no real incentive for a high level to go out of their way to a location they wouldn't typically be. This tale maybe had a "happy ending" in that it escalated into more of a skirmish, but for every one of these, how many more tales of woe are there with griefers going unmolested until they get bored?

This is pretty much why I favor PvP being a solely opt-in mechanic. A server being flagged PvP is perhaps too broad of a distinction, and a player's moods and tolerances can vary with any given day. "War isn't fair! Blahblahblah~" is too flimsy to justify tarnishing someone's attempt at enjoyment. Telling them to do something else, or with this boat thing, basically forcing them to a longer, more drawn out path that isn't risk-free, either, doesn't help. I get it. Some people just wanna bash heads, but let's not pretend killing lowbies or those at low health from a PvE fight is the pinnacle of the PvP experience. It's more on the dev's plate to be pointing these people at each other with objectives of enough variety to not just seem like more warfront spam or hopeless endeavors if you find you're pitted against pre-made.

[Rhyis.]

That's simply what PvP servers are about. It's more the fault of WoW in that the high level players are immune to damage from a horde of low level players. If the game was properly oriented around PvP from the get go, a mass horde of lowbies should be able to kill a single high level player.

But the act of being murdered by anybody anywhere is the entire purpose of a PvP server though. If the experience isn't enjoyable, then you shouldn't be on that server in the first place. Shit, back in my day* when you got killed you lost all the gear you spent months getting. In games today, when you die, nothing happens. Who cares?



*

Spoiler: show

We also PvPed uphill, walking backwards, in 4 feet of snow.

[Ambrosia]

I wholeheartedly agree.

We don't need to be surrounded by:


http://www.celluloidheroreviews.com/...spaceballs.jpg'S


Play nice. Be friendly. Helping others is a delight.

[Renzokuken]

Again, I'd like to hear an example of someone being screwed over by another player actually improving the game. Googlehead and Rhyis have given broad examples that have nothing to do with their personal experiences.

On a side note, I'd like to see PvP servers die. Open world PvP is at odds with the persistent and consistent character progression that MMORPG's are aimed at facilitating. Games like CoD have fulfilled the need for constant PvP action if that's what you're looking for. In fact, I don't think I've really seen people in those games complaining about griefing and the like (camping maybe...). PvP in an MMORPG needs structure in order to create a positive game experience for everyone involved.

[Rhyis.]

Ya'll niggas don't RvR. I feel bad for you.

[Viq]

L2 is a great example of a game where assholes made the game better. As you progress in that game, the population gets progressively funneled into smaller areas that are fewer in number.* There are no factions, so players are left to create their own cliques with whomever they wish. This was greatly facilitated by both having a huge party (I think it was 9 dudes in a party), and by allowing guilds to formally ally. At higher levels, if you wanted to get exp you probably had to be able to steal an area from someone else. There was constant PvP as people fought for control of their favorite leveling grounds. There were also a number of world bosses where you often would have to fight both the boss and whatever other group wants to stop you to take the boss for themselves. Add in the great castle sieges (the only widely available "organized" PvP since most people didn't qualify for Olympiad) and the game created one of the best PvP systems ever, largely fueled by people doing things that would be considered dickish in just about any other game.

I remember one time in particular where my clan's ally held Schuttgart and two minor castles. One of the other clans in our ally wanted Aden (the "main" castle), and worked a deal with the clan that owned it to turn on our ally. That clan's actions led to us losing Schuttgart to the ally that owned Aden. The clan that turned joined that ally, and was given Aden for a short time as a reward. While being on the losing end of that sucked at the time, things like that are super memorable. It gave the remaining clans in our ally motivation to push to not just reclaim Schuttgart, but to shoot straight for Aden. That was a great time to play that game, and it was all because of assholes.

I suppose I should mention that I typically would fall into the asshole category in a lot of games. I lost a lot of interest in FFXI after they added things like /blockaid, and killed enmity gain of some skills. Having to fight Fafhogg is boring. Having to fight Fafhogg while everyone else in the zone is trying to fuck you up is a blast. Sure, I got a few 3 day vacations for using the great Mazurka -> Spike Flail combo, but I sure as hell don't regret any of it.

*As of when I was heavily involved in it circa 2007-2009ish.

[Trocian]

As someone who never got into L2, what systems were in place to make it "the best PvP ever", as I hear this alot. Factionless open PvP with castle sieges?

Maybe I'm way off, but I doubt a new MMO with exactly the same ruleset/setting would come close to be as good as you remember in L2. It's kinda like people saying the endless skirmishes in vanilla WoW was the best thing ever, it's nostalgia goggles supreme, and it'd never work in a new game coming out today.