BG Grammar Police: Unnecessary, Commas

[Yugl]

I don't know if you guys object to dictionary.com, but
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/made?s=t

It's both, but not at the same time. In this case, I believe they want the verb. The reason is because you can change

This feature in ABC Software allows the end user to review the specific changes that are made by a specific user.

to

This feature in ABC Software allows the end user to review the specific changes a specific user made

And retain the same meaning. If used as an adjective, you need to appeal to one of the five uses mentioned on the website.

[Lucavi]

I love grammar. Keep this up; good reading.

[Greatguardian]

Right. I suppose I could have been more specific. The word "made" in the sentence in question is most certainly the past verb form and not the adjective form.

Edit to avoid double posting,

"This feature in ABC Software allows the end user to review the specific changes that were made by a specific user" would be the only correct form which adds conjunctions because it maintains the proper tense, but they are unnecessary as I don't believe anything is left unclear without them. It also implicitly limits the scope of the sentence to a single instance of a user making changes in the software, which is probably not what the author is going for.

[Pirian]

Ugh, for some reason I wrote adjective instead of verb in my explination and then defended that instead of reading what I wrote -.-. But it still stands that the two clauses need to be separated for the reason I said. What I wrote should actually be:

Without a comma the sentence isn't specific on what noun the verb "made" is describing. Is it describing what the "user" is doing, or is it describing the "changes"? It's obvious when we speak the sentence, but when writing, it is not so specific. By adding "that are", you are separating the two clauses of "specific changes" and "specific user", and the adjectives describing each of them, respectively.

That's really the only thing that needs to be changed in what I said, but I am really sorry for that typo. It doesn't even make sense with "adjective" in that sentence, because in the next one I go on to describe it as a verb, lol

[Pirian]

Right. I suppose I could have been more specific. The word "made" in the sentence in question is most certainly the past verb form and not the adjective form.

Edit to avoid double posting,

"This feature in ABC Software allows the end user to review the specific changes that were made by a specific user" would be the only correct form which adds conjunctions because it maintains the proper tense, but they are unnecessary as I don't believe anything is left unclear without them. It also implicitly limits the scope of the sentence to a single instance of a user making changes in the software, which is probably not what the author is going for.

I agree with these changes. I don't know why I put "are" instead of "were". I don't agree with the implications, though

[Greatguardian]

Ugh, for some reason I wrote adjective instead of verb in my explination and then defended that instead of reading what I wrote -.-. But it still stands that the two clauses need to be separated for the reason I said. What I wrote should actually be:

That's really the only thing that needs to be changed in what I said, but I am really sorry for that typo. It doesn't even make sense with "adjective" in that sentence, because in the next one I go on to describe it as a verb, lol

Yeah, I was wondering about that. That makes more sense.

[Yugl]

I can't read his mind, but I think his justification for the implications falls under the reasoning Russell gives in "On Denoting." The use of the word "the" is "at least one, at most one." That's why saying "The congressman" only works if you're talking about what a particular scenario where there is one congressman. You can also use the word to describe groups of items like "The best salads." You still mean "at least one, at most one", but you're talking about a group as a singular entity. I'm not sure whether I agree with him (I haven't thought about the issue) because I can see an argument that collects multiple changes into a single category of changes.

[Greatguardian]

I can't read his mind, but I think his justification for the implications falls under the reasoning Russell gives in "On Denoting." The use of the word "the" is "at least one, at most one." That's why saying "The congressman" only works if you're talking about what a particular scenario where there is one congressman. You can also use the word to describe groups of items like "The best salads." You still mean "at least one, at most one", but you're talking about a group as a singular entity. I'm not sure whether I agree with him (I haven't thought about the issue) because I can see an argument that collects multiple changes into a single category of changes.

This is essentially my problem with it, yes. When you say "The specific changes", you're talking about one cluster of changes (even if it's plural) that were made at one point in time by one user. While I'm sure the software allows you to do that, I believe that the manual is trying to convey that the end-user has the ability to look at any changes made by any user.

The difference in practice for a piece of software is between being able to look up "all posts by Yugl" and being able to look up "all posts made by anyone who posts in Spam tagged with their corresponding usernames". There is a difference. Adding conjunctions to the sentence implies that the software has the former function while leaving them off implies that it has the latter.

[Pirian]

Lets take "the" out, if that's the case.

This feature in ABC Software allows the end user to review specific changes that were made by a specific user.

I added it in because it is what looked correct, but it isn't necessary if you want to add the conjunction

[Greatguardian]

I'm okay with this

[Kerberoz]

has an English degree but his English is worse than high school level

Sounds about right.

[Greatguardian]

I do not have an English degree but I have sex with a lot of women who do so that makes me ultra qualified.

[wyrmtung]

Good stuff here. I agree that the added comma confuses the reader into what exactly the phrase "made by specific user" is modifying.

Can you not go behind him and correct the shit yourself without him knowing?

He's the most sensitive non-gay dude with whom I've ever worked. I'm going to see what his revisions look like before I make a big stink about it. One thing is for sure: the final draft will be up to my standards before any of my bosses see it.

I'm just upset that for months and months of this project, I was hearing stories from him about his English degree, about how much he hates seeing bad grammar in other people's writing, and about how much time he spent into writing this. I finally get to see the fruits of his labor and it's laughably bad.


Just for shits and giggles, here are more examples of this guy's "English degree" education. The nouns again have been changed to protect the innocent.

An situation arises that where creating an order...

From time-to-time products becomes constrained.

ABC Software enable note creation...

In addition to the above examples there are a ton of Unnecessary Capitalizations and incorrect punctuations?..
(Yes, he really did add two periods after a question mark. He did it more than once so I know it wasn't a mistake. The kicker is that the sentences were actually statements as they were written even though he intended for them to be questions.)

[Jefe]

Maybe his messing w/ you?

[Pirian]

Maybe his messing w/ you?

http://i.qkme.me/49bx.jpg

[BaneTheBrawler]

I wonder if he ran spellcheck, saw nothing was spelled wrong, and assumed that means it's perfect. Some of my old classmates would do that. I would often be waiting at the printer for my work, find errors in other people's work, and point them out. I had a reputation as a book-smart guy, so it wasn't difficult to convince them it really was wrong. That reputation was totally undeserved, by the way. The entirety of my vocabulary and English skills were/are derived from my voracious appetite for stories. I read a lot.

[Ksandra]

It's an adjective describing two different things <.<;

Kohan is right, however. The issue is not that using the word twice in close proximity is grammatically incorrect. It's that it sounds redundant and is extremely poor word choice. The thesaurus exists for a reason.


Also, a lot of what you guys are discussing are all grammatically correct. It's just that some sentence structures are better and give a clearer picture of what's being said.

[Greatguardian]

Kohan is right, however. The issue is not that using the word twice in close proximity is grammatically incorrect. It's that it sounds redundant and is extremely poor word choice. The thesaurus exists for a reason.


Also, a lot of what you guys are discussing are all grammatically correct. It's just that some sentence structures are better and give a clearer picture of what's being said.

The word you're both looking for is repetitive, not redundant. And in this case it's not entirely applicable. Using the same word in quick succession for two different subjects within the same phrase maintains consistency. It is like using the phrase "You have to be at a certain place at a certain time". There's nothing wrong with it because both instances of the word "certain" are used in the same phrase and address different subjects.

[Byrthnoth]

The first "specific" makes the sentence sound redundant without a pause when spoken, which is why he put the comma in there. It is redundancy, because you're already looking at specified changes if you're looking at changes made by a specific user. Really what they want to say is, "You can select some of the changes made by a specific user and look only at them."

This almost has to be analogous to the meaning, is more "specific" (somewhat ironically), and avoids the problem:

This feature in ABC Software allows the end user to review selected changes made by a specific user.

[Apelila]

Using comma's to present a spoken break in a sentence is the first stop at the sloppy writing train station. I'm forgiving of technical documents full of jargon that use this affect, the example you have provided is not something that falls within that category.