Ridiculous Police News (Specific events)

[Qalbert]

part of the issue, going back to the dillon taylor thing, is that it was handled poorly on all sides. the person calling in "some gangbangers flashing a gun" the guy acting like an idiot, and the cop could have tried to deescalate the situation. obviously I'm not a cop so i don't know procedure, but it seems to me that rolling up on a suspect, drawing a gun, and yelling at them, is pretty damn confrontational for an anonymous (i assume) and unsubstantiated phone tip. surely a calmer/less confrontational approach/attempt to ascertain the actual situation first would be better than taking an anonymous caller at their word and going in guns blazing?

[Qalbert]

the whole thing just seemed completely avoidable

[NynJa]

He was facing away from the cop with no gun drawn. The cop could have put his gun away and tazed him before the kid knew what happened. A taser would stop him just as well as a gun, and odds of him dying from it would be much much lower.

And the bleeding hearts would still say "why is he tazing an unarmed guy"?

[Salodin]

Go ahead and miss with a taser when the suspect might draw his concealed gun. Watch watch happens.

That's why you don't bring a taser to a gun fight. I'd like to think you're smart enough to figure this out...

[hey]

Gee, I dont know
Lets see

http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/united-states


http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/united-kingdom



numbers on the site I used differer from Neph's, but the fact remains when you say shit like "why do US Cops need guns, they dont carry guns in the UK and get by just fine", when the average states that EVERY human being walking on the streets in america is potentially carrying a piece compared to 1 in 14 people in the UK...yeah, you're not doing yourself any favors.

What is the rate of cops being killed by guns when they encounter someone with a gun in the uk vs us? I'd be very interested in some numbers on that.

[hey]

And the bleeding hearts would still say "why is he tazing an unarmed guy"?

Oh, i forgot we only care about what people think of him, and not..oh i don't know...the guy he killed?

[Salodin]

What is the rate of cops being killed by guns when they encounter someone with a gun in the uk vs us? I'd be very interested in some numbers on that.

Idk, look it up.

It's still irrelevant to the context of the incident.

[Galkaeater]

that's pretty disingenuous and not at all how averages work. by that logic everyone in america potentially has one boob.

some boobs are not so easy to conceal

[hey]

Idk, look it up.

It's still irrelevant to the context of the incident.

It's relevant to cops being unnecessarily trigger happy. If cops are dying left and right every time they encounter someone with a gun if they don't have a gun of their own, then okay, maybe some caution is justified, but if not...

[Salodin]

No hey, you keep ignoring context. I guess you only saw the video and didn't read the article or any posts that explained it for the lazy.

The cops showed up with guns drawn because they received an urgent call that three people were driving around flashing a firearm. You don't enter this situation with your hands up, or with a taser out. You are entering this situation with your weapon ready to go in case this suspect tries to fire on you or a civilian.

You can argue that he was unarmed, but that's ignoring the fact that he failed to comply with directions and was hostile towards the police. If he was innocent, then good for him, explain that to the police after the situation has been deescalated and all parties involved know there is no threat to themselves or the public. If you want to argue that their tactics were wrong, then by all means explain to us how; I'm sure our resident cops would have no problem explaining why you're wrong.

[Nephlite]

part of the issue, going back to the dillon taylor thing, is that it was handled poorly on all sides. the person calling in "some gangbangers flashing a gun" the guy acting like an idiot, and the cop could have tried to deescalate the situation. obviously I'm not a cop so i don't know procedure, but it seems to me that rolling up on a suspect, drawing a gun, and yelling at them, is pretty damn confrontational for an anonymous (i assume) and unsubstantiated phone tip. surely a calmer/less confrontational approach/attempt to ascertain the actual situation first would be better than taking an anonymous caller at their word and going in guns blazing?

The issue is if the subject had a gun and you calmly tried to approach that type of situation, you risk getting your melon popped. There's a reason why you never see success stories like that. It's one thing if the subject has the gun pointed at their own head, it's totally different if you reasonably believe (I'm saying reasonably because the caller likely wasn't anonymous, which is 8/10 callers) the subject has a gun and is capable of pulling it out and shooting you with it.

Additionally, I keep seeing people throw out the word "deescalate" without offering a tactic or method to deescalate said situation other than what's being done. Other than telling the person to put their hands up and stop moving, what else do you say to a drunk kid who's pretty much shown intent that he's willing to die suicide by cop? There was a video of a cop kicking in a door on a suicidal and they Tased him and tried to reason with the guy and in the end, the guy ran through and tried to stab the officer anyways. What's the secret, then? Where can I get this "reasoning" training that works all the time and deescalates every situation?

Let me tell you guys a secret: it only works one out of one hundred times. You guys don't see the 20-30 minutes before the video's start of cops using force on subjects where they're talking people down, trying desperately to deescalate and control the situation with verbals. I have begged people before for their cooperation. Cops don't like using force on subjects. Especially nowadays and as early as the first camera phone has it been risky to use force on subjects. Plus, fighting and trying to control people with physical force sucks.

But let's automatically assume that officers haven't exhausted all their options prior to contacting people. Even in the Dillon Taylor case, where the officer likely said something like "Hey man, can I talk to you for a sec?" before he starts to move away and put his hands under his shirt in his waistband. Then, you hear the audio cut in when the officer draws his weapon because a potential deadly force threat has presented itself. Now what? Continue to reason? To plead as he fishes for a weapon to blast you?

The whole situation definitely could have been avoided if the kid just cooperated. You play stupid games, you win stupid prizes. This kid was definitely playing a very stupid game with his life; likely, he did not care to throw it away so recklessly.

[hey]

No hey, you keep ignoring context. I guess you only saw the video and didn't read the article or any posts that explained it for the lazy.

The cops showed up with guns drawn because they received an urgent call that three people were driving around flashing a firearm. You don't enter this situation with your hands up, or with a taser out. You are entering this situation with your weapon ready to go in case this suspect tries to fire on you or a civilian.

You can argue that he was unarmed, but that's ignoring the fact that he failed to comply with directions and was hostile towards the police. If he was innocent, then good for him, explain that to the police after the situation has been deescalated and all parties involved know there is no threat to themselves or the public. If you want to argue that their tactics were wrong, then by all means explain to us how; I'm sure our resident cops would have no problem explaining why you're wrong.

Thanks, i got that.

UK cops still have to go up against people with guns sometimes, without having a gun of their own. How often do they die in this case? Even if he had a gun, i'm not convinced the cops couldn't stop him without using their gun. Hence why i'm curious about statistics about it.

[Qalbert]

if the call wasn't anonymous then the caller should be held accountable for a false report

[Salodin]

It's not illegal to be mistaken, afaik.

[Nephlite]

if the call wasn't anonymous then the caller should be held accountable for a false report

We still don't know if he had a gun or possibly ditched it somewhere, or even if the other two took it and his it.

It's also hard to file false report charges. First, you have to have intent to defraud or lie on an official investigation. You could very well believe the sky is purple and convince a judge that you believe it is purple. False report charges are usually brought up in personal attacks like rape, murder, assault, etc.

[Qalbert]

I'm just saying there needs to be accountability somewhere in the fucking process. You can't take a closed loop of "well a caller said X so police had to be ready to kill him" and treat is as unavoidable and blameless. There was fault involved in all parties, and people need to be held accountable and educated about it. If I'm cooking burgers and the neighbor calls the fire department because they see smoke and the truck rolls up, sees some smoke, and causes severe water damage to my house without investigating no one would try to excuse it. Some basic effort needs to be expended to verify that what a caller is saying is true, same as what we were saying about people being SWATted. With how much shit you give witness accounts for being unreliable and biased in the Ferguson thread it's ridiculous that you say a witness who calls in a tip has to be treated as 100% verified fact and go in assuming the worst and prepared to kill someone. That attitude and approach is fundamentally flawed and being paranoid doesn't excuse it.

[Salodin]

I think its very telling that people are more concerned with who to blame instead of accepting that it was a mistake and that when in a tense situation like in the video it is important to follow directions and explain your innocence once the police know you're not a threat to any one.

Btw qal, your analogy sucks. I'd explain why but I'm sure you're smart enough to figure out why.

[Melena]

Interestingly enough, England's police are issued collapsible batons. I can't speak for Neph, JMC, and Xno, but I know out here, those were banished, as well as batons with handles. Apples to Oranges I know, just something I found interesting.

[BaneTheBrawler]

probably because our cops were using them to kill people

[Salodin]

I'd say it's because they suck for any purpose you'd use it for. Need to lethally take down some one? Use a gun. Need to non lethally take down someone? Use a taser. For everything else below that you have your hands and pepper spray.

A baton just doesn't fit well into any of that.