Ridiculous Police News (Specific events)

[noblemountain]

Or, we could be rational human beings capable of empathy and see reality. I have worked with cops, I've fought in Iraq (and had ROCKS THROWN AT ME OH THE HUMANITY!), been private security for unlikeable people in America (and had STUFF THROWN AT ME OH GOD), and have actually done ride alongs in Philly with cop friends...and I still see the problems. I have cop friends that see the problem. You, and cops like you who defend the BS, are the fucking problem.

[Gokku]

Neph you really should read this it covers the issue you seem to be displaying.http://m.fbi.gov/#http://www.fbi.gov...ement-and-race

But that leads me to my third hard truth: something happens to people in law enforcement. Many of us develop different flavors of cynicism that we work hard to resist because they can be lazy mental shortcuts. For example, criminal suspects routinely lie about their guilt, and nearly everybody we charge is guilty. That makes it easy for some folks in law enforcement to assume that everybody is lying and that no suspect, regardless of their race, could be innocent. Easy, but wrong.

Likewise, police officers on patrol in our nation’s cities often work in environments where a hugely disproportionate percentage of street crime is committed by young men of color. Something happens to people of good will working in that environment. After years of police work, officers often can’t help but be influenced by the cynicism they feel.

A mental shortcut becomes almost irresistible and maybe even rational by some lights. The two young black men on one side of the street look like so many others the officer has locked up. Two white men on the other side of the street—even in the same clothes—do not. The officer does not make the same association about the two white guys, whether that officer is white or black. And that drives different behavior. The officer turns toward one side of the street and not the other. We need to come to grips with the fact that this behavior complicates the relationship between police and the communities they serve.

[Nephlite]

Or, we could be rational human beings capable of empathy and see reality. I have worked with cops, I've fought in Iraq (and had ROCKS THROWN AT ME OH THE HUMANITY!), been private security for unlikeable people in America (and had STUFF THROWN AT ME OH GOD), and have actually done ride alongs in Philly with cop friends...and I still see the problems. I have cop friends that see the problem. You, and cops like you who defend the BS, are the fucking problem.

Sure sure. Have a cookie son. I gave a rational explanation as to the tactics and the mindset, and instead of judging based on the time of the incident, yet Monday Morning Quarterbacking continues. Yes, things could have went differently. No, I don't think they were excessive and unreasonable given that they already tried using other methods to subdue the subject.

Neph you really should read this it covers the issue you seem to be displaying.http://m.fbi.gov/#http://www.fbi.gov...ement-and-race

And I think you need to grow up and stop letting your bias cloud your responses. I have never said there wasn't anything wrong with the system. Your argument is pointless so just stop.

[Tokitoki]

Sure sure. Have a cookie son. I gave a rational explanation as to the tactics and the mindset, and instead of judging based on the time of the incident, yet Monday Morning Quarterbacking continues. Yes, things could have went differently. No, I don't think they were excessive and unreasonable given that they already tried using other methods to subdue the subject.

I feel like I shouldn't get involved in this because it will just press me more, but I have to say something. I understand that during most of these "discussions" you're under attack for your various viewpoints. You obviously have different experiences than most of us, and I can appreciate that. Where I fail to comprehend the break down is in this particular argument. I don't understand how you can justify shooting and killing a man who was throwing rocks on a street corner. You argue that they went through the process of trying to detain him before escalating to lethal force. From what we know that is true, as reported by the various outlets. What I don't understand is how 3 trained officers cannot detain a single man throwing rocks.

From the video and information we have, we can see that the one officer approached the guy and tried to do something in order to detain him while another officer was still running to the scene and the other had his gun drawn already. The third guy that was running over appears to have the taser? He points it at the suspect and the suspect keeps going.

At this point the suspect is running away with three cops chasing him in a jog. Why couldn't the three of them muster the energy to just do a 30 foot sprint directly to him and take him down? The suspect turns around and then gets shot.

You don't have to spear the guy, but if three people grab the guy and pull him down you're not going to break your hip in the process.

[Andalusian girls]

'if you disagree with me you're weak and need to do a ride along to see what real danger can be'

'ey bro i've done ride alongs and faced life threatening situations in a far worse security environment during the Iraq war and i still disagree with you'

proceed to belittle and dismiss combat veteran's experiences with patronizing 'have a cookie son'

outstanding

[kuronosan]

I guess the NFL is better trained at tackling for money than the people who have to do it to save a life.

[Nephlite]

I feel like I shouldn't get involved in this because it will just press me more, but I have to say something. I understand that during most of these "discussions" you're under attack for your various viewpoints. You obviously have different experiences than most of us, and I can appreciate that. Where I fail to comprehend the break down is in this particular argument. I don't understand how you can justify shooting and killing a man who was throwing rocks on a street corner. You argue that they went through the process of trying to detain him before escalating to lethal force. From what we know that is true, as reported by the various outlets. What I don't understand is how 3 trained officers cannot detain a single man throwing rocks.

From the video and information we have, we can see that the one officer approached the guy and tried to do something in order to detain him while another officer was still running to the scene and the other had his gun drawn already. The third guy that was running over appears to have the taser? He points it at the suspect and the suspect keeps going.

At this point the suspect is running away with three cops chasing him in a jog. Why couldn't the three of them muster the energy to just do a 30 foot sprint directly to him and take him down? The suspect turns around and then gets shot.

You don't have to spear the guy, but if three people grab the guy and pull him down you're not going to break your hip in the process.

Not only do you still have to worry about the rocks, but people are forgetting the police also received a report the guy might've had a gun. That would cause them to be more on alert than anything. They already used a Taser on him once, which was ineffective (they aren't perfect, they are prone to failure, and some people aren't affected by them). We don't know how long they were fighting with him prior to the encounter, and what the circumstances were before the video. Two officers were also injured by the guy throwing rocks. Knee jerk "They should have shown more restraint!" Opinions without a full grasp of the entire incident, and judging the incident off of a 20 second video are stupid

'if you disagree with me you're weak and need to do a ride along to see what real danger can be'

'ey bro i've done ride alongs and faced life threatening situations in a far worse security environment during the Iraq war and i still disagree with you'

proceed to belittle and dismiss combat veteran's experiences with patronizing 'have a cookie son'

outstanding

Being a combat veteran doesn't mean you're not an idiot and you "know shit". It also doesn't mean you automatically deserve respect because you've "seen some shit". I argue with vets all the time and guess what? The US military follows the same use of force policies and ROE as the police. Every vet who pulls that nonsense forgets the FLETC use of force model that's taught during BCT, is the exact same policy that all Law Enforcement across the county follows. It's the standard for a reason.

[Thunder]

I guess the NFL is better trained at tackling for money than the people who have to do it to save a life.

wat. of course the people incentivized by millions of dollars are going to be "better trained" than the people incentivized by a couple dozen thousand

incentives are really powerful

why should those regular guys work any harder to take the rock thrower down? Public outcry on the internet? Fear of getting fired?

[Nephlite]

wat. of course the people incentivized by millions of dollars are going to be "better trained" than the people incentivized by a couple dozen thousand

incentives are really powerful

why should those regular guys work any harder to take the rock thrower down? Public outcry on the internet? Fear of getting fired?

Fear of getting fired and outcry are probably on the front of our mind in these instances. There's nothing worse than being right, and it being proven that you're right, and still getting slammed because it doesn't fit an agenda or public opinion.

[noblemountain]

Being a combat veteran doesn't mean you're not an idiot and you "know shit". It also doesn't mean you automatically deserve respect because you've "seen some shit". I argue with vets all the time and guess what? The US military follows the same use of force policies and ROE as the police. Every vet who pulls that nonsense forgets the FLETC use of force model that's taught during BCT, is the exact same policy that all Law Enforcement across the county follows. It's the standard for a reason.

And the military is given proper training. You people are not. See the difference yet?

[Thunder]

Fear of getting fired and outcry are probably on the front of our mind in these instances. There's nothing worse than being right, and it being proven that you're right, and still getting slammed because it doesn't fit an agenda or public opinion.

Uh.. are you saying police officers work as hard to be the best versions of themselves in that uniform similar to how NFL players do?

I thought kuro's joke was ridiculous, maybe I'm alone here though

Fear of getting fired and public outcry -in the moment- doesn't come clooooose to the kind of pressure athletes are under to perform at their peaks. Let alone a cop's desire to vs a million-dollar athlete's desire to achieve.

Don't get me wrong here, I'm not saying policemen are subhuman or something. Just saying holding their standard of "being the best you can be" up to the standards athletes have for themselves is r i d i c u l o u s

[kuronosan]

I guess we need a sarcasm sign now.

The point is, athletes may be paid to be good at something but that's their job.

My job is to assist in diagnosis with laboratory medicine. Do you think it helps the patient if I adopt the attitude "fuck it I'm underpaid who cares how accurate this shit is I'll just do it all the same it's easier"?

Would you see a doctor with that attitude? A surgeon?

Now, would you trust someone to protect you with that attitude?

[jmc]

Bad arguement.

How many times does a medical assistant, a doctor or surgeon get attacked, spit on, cursed at etc.... just because of the uniform they wear?

Not trying to excuse any bad behaviour from anyone, but if any person at any job went through what officers go through daily from bad apples of the public then they would Crack too.

*edit actually, nurses get alot of shit too for just doing a job. Yet I've meet tons of nurses that are pretty checked out from the job too, but they continue to show upto work

[Thunder]

I guess we need a sarcasm sign now.

The point is, athletes may be paid to be good at something but that's their job.

My job is to assist in diagnosis with laboratory medicine. Do you think it helps the patient if I adopt the attitude "fuck it I'm underpaid who cares how accurate this shit is I'll just do it all the same it's easier"?

Would you see a doctor with that attitude? A surgeon?

Now, would you trust someone to protect you with that attitude?

You think those athletes would be THAT good if they weren't paid that much and know they'd be out the door and replaced by someone better/younger if they slacked off? I think you're not giving incentives enough respect here

If a cop is getting paid that much and RARELY (according to this thread and the news stories in it) lose their jobs then why da fk would "steve" down the block work so much harder to protect your life?

A doctor/surgeon (and probably you) have humungous incentives to perform very well. They get fucked in the ass if they're proven negligent right? So ya, I trust them more to do their job well than a regular ol' cop. I mean, doesn't everyone think so too?


Oh, so it was sarcasm that NFL players actually tackle better than policemen? dood. It was a shitty joke that I got a good laugh out of being how misplaced it was. It's all good man, I'm not here to call you a retard, I've always appreciated your posts. Just the joke. It was retarded

[Nephlite]

And the military is given proper training. You people are not. See the difference yet?

Puh-lease. 14 weeks of OSUT for Infantry is 10-12 weeks shorter than the standard academy for police. You forget I was Infantry as well, so don't give me that crap.

Uh.. are you saying police officers work as hard to be the best versions of themselves in that uniform similar to how NFL players do?

I thought kuro's joke was ridiculous, maybe I'm alone here though

Fear of getting fired and public outcry -in the moment- doesn't come clooooose to the kind of pressure athletes are under to perform at their peaks. Let alone a cop's desire to vs a million-dollar athlete's desire to achieve.

Don't get me wrong here, I'm not saying policemen are subhuman or something. Just saying holding their standard of "being the best you can be" up to the standards athletes have for themselves is r i d i c u l o u s

For me, I try to be as best as I can, because I got in to the job because I like to help people. I can't speak for the others, but my personal feeling is I want to help people as much as possible.

That being said, an NFL players incentive to do well is definitely for that paycheck. But, most cops don't do the job for the check. Pay sucks, benefits are okay depending on the location, but most cops do it because they want to help people. Some get burned out, and some get taken in by shit. I'm a strong believer that bad cops don't start out bad.

Fear of getting fired and public outcry are usually what cause officers to make serious mistakes that cost them their lives. That's why the training is so intensive, and why we're trained to put our lives above someone else. Past mistakes and hesitation have cost people their lives in our profession, and we train that hesitation out of the officers so that they make choices that will keep them from getting killed.

In the case of Kyle Dinkheller, who was shot and killed after trying to stop his killer for speeding, another officer in his jurisdiction had just been fired for shooting at a perpetrator who he thought had a weapon. Dinkheller hesitated to kill the driver, even after the driver produced a M-1 Garand from his truck and waited until the subject started to fire at him. He lost his life that day, and there's hundreds of cases of the same thing happening.

And that in itself is another reason I take offense to people saying the police callously and maliciously kill people. Yes, we do put our lives above others, but that does not mean we're just firing indiscriminately at people, and we're not trying to use all means necessary to resolve that incident before resorting to Lethal Force. Sometimes, that distinction isn't clear, and you have to make a split-second decision in an instant, or else you'll die. That does not mean that police officers don't do it, though. There's some pretty fucked up situations out there that are clearly abuses and definitely brutality (such as the Alabama officer slamming the Indian guy). But then, there's situations like this one where you have to analyze every moment of the incident, and read the whole story behind it in order to grasp just how dangerous this situation is:

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2015/01/w...hurch-wedding/

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=90f_1422039488

A call for a man with a gun threatening to kill his girlfriend. Officer arrives, is nice and calm, then the deceased takes off running. He turns for a split second after dropping something, and the officer kills him. The subject had a gun. It's not clear on what the subject dropped, but one things for sure: the subject was indeed armed. What are the thoughts on it? Do you wait for the subject to shoot at you and risk dying, or do you kill him before that happens? We are trained, and know, that we cannot help anyone if we're dead. And, we always keep in mind the context of the response to these types of crime. Yet, knowing the full picture and how this incident unfolded, that doesn't stop people from judging the actions as "too forceful" or "excessive". How?

[Thunder]

Fear of getting fired and public outcry are usually what cause officers to make serious mistakes that cost them their lives. That's why the training is so intensive, and why we're trained to put our lives above someone else. Past mistakes and hesitation have cost people their lives in our profession, and we train that hesitation out of the officers so that they make choices that will keep them from getting killed.

In the case of Kyle Dinkheller, who was shot and killed after trying to stop his killer for speeding, another officer in his jurisdiction had just been fired for shooting at a perpetrator who he thought had a weapon. Dinkheller hesitated to kill the driver, even after the driver produced a M-1 Garand from his truck and waited until the subject started to fire at him. He lost his life that day, and there's hundreds of cases of the same thing happening.

I'm in some kind of agreement with your entire post. What I disagree with is some things that I'm inferring, so I might be off about what I'm implying you saying

Even if your training is pretty good and all it doesn't really amount much next to the person who takes it on themselves to be the very best they can be. You don't get to call yourself #1 anything anywhere by going through the same "program" that thousands/millions of other people have gone through. And there's nothing wrong with having been educated by "just" the program. That's great, but I'm under no illusion that police officers are going to be some super heroes laying down their lives for me or talking down crazed gun men like they're the pied piper of lunacy

i think it's OK that a cop doesn't take the 100% appropriate action every time and expecting otherwise is, imo, kind of like yelling at the fish for not being able to climb a tree. Don't police interact with people at least thousands of times daily? Of course we'll get some shitheaded stories coming out weekly, this is the new lead-that-bleeds for the media

The Kyle Dinkheller thing is a -perfect- little glimpse into someone who was way under prepared. He was 22 and his experience/training for negotiating/diplomacy with people might have just been high school. Forget having a lot of experience being able to talk to people of different cultures. I watched the video of his death and him dying sucked. But man, as far as there is suicide by cop - he did suicide by crazed gunman

What a LOT of people are getting at is that they expect these "average" policemen, who are sometimes below average (let's be honest), to somehow be able to negotiate as well the secretary of state, do it with people who are angry/upset, AND with people who speak a different language (culturally). And that's just crazy with the way the structures are set up right now. And yelling at cops, as if they're the problem, isn't getting anyone what they want

Maybe people don't get this, either, but negotiating, making friends, influencing people, etc, are all skills.

[AidenCarby]

Nephlite is really punching himself in the dick here. Ty for your service Nob's

[kuronosan]

I'm in some kind of agreement with your entire post. What I disagree with is some things that I'm inferring, so I might be off about what I'm implying you saying

Even if your training is pretty good and all it doesn't really amount much next to the person who takes it on themselves to be the very best they can be. You don't get to call yourself #1 anything anywhere by going through the same "program" that thousands/millions of other people have gone through. And there's nothing wrong with having been educated by "just" the program. That's great, but I'm under no illusion that police officers are going to be some super heroes laying down their lives for me or talking down crazed gun men like they're the pied piper of lunacy

i think it's OK that a cop doesn't take the 100% appropriate action every time and expecting otherwise is, imo, kind of like yelling at the fish for not being able to climb a tree. Don't police interact with people at least thousands of times daily? Of course we'll get some shitheaded stories coming out weekly, this is the new lead-that-bleeds for the media

The Kyle Dinkheller thing is a -perfect- little glimpse into someone who was way under prepared. He was 22 and his experience/training for negotiating/diplomacy with people might have just been high school. Forget having a lot of experience being able to talk to people of different cultures. I watched the video of his death and him dying sucked. But man, as far as there is suicide by cop - he did suicide by crazed gunman

What a LOT of people are getting at is that they expect these "average" policemen, who are sometimes below average (let's be honest), to somehow be able to negotiate as well the secretary of state, do it with people who are angry/upset, AND with people who speak a different language (culturally). And that's just crazy with the way the structures are set up right now. And yelling at cops, as if they're the problem, isn't getting anyone what they want

Maybe people don't get this, either, but negotiating, making friends, influencing people, etc, are all skills.

And if you don't have those skills, don't be a cop.

That's like saying accurate hand movements, attention to detail, intelligence, people skills, and calmness under pressure are skills of a surgeon but we should totally understand if they kill someone and it's okay to not have those skills.

[Nephlite]

I'm in some kind of agreement with your entire post. What I disagree with is some things that I'm inferring, so I might be off about what I'm implying you saying

Even if your training is pretty good and all it doesn't really amount much next to the person who takes it on themselves to be the very best they can be. You don't get to call yourself #1 anything anywhere by going through the same "program" that thousands/millions of other people have gone through. And there's nothing wrong with having been educated by "just" the program. That's great, but I'm under no illusion that police officers are going to be some super heroes laying down their lives for me or talking down crazed gun men like they're the pied piper of lunacy

i think it's OK that a cop doesn't take the 100% appropriate action every time and expecting otherwise is, imo, kind of like yelling at the fish for not being able to climb a tree. Don't police interact with people at least thousands of times daily? Of course we'll get some shitheaded stories coming out weekly, this is the new lead-that-bleeds for the media

The Kyle Dinkheller thing is a -perfect- little glimpse into someone who was way under prepared. He was 22 and his experience/training for negotiating/diplomacy with people might have just been high school. Forget having a lot of experience being able to talk to people of different cultures. I watched the video of his death and him dying sucked. But man, as far as there is suicide by cop - he did suicide by crazed gunman

What a LOT of people are getting at is that they expect these "average" policemen, who are sometimes below average (let's be honest), to somehow be able to negotiate as well the secretary of state, do it with people who are angry/upset, AND with people who speak a different language (culturally). And that's just crazy with the way the structures are set up right now. And yelling at cops, as if they're the problem, isn't getting anyone what they want

Maybe people don't get this, either, but negotiating, making friends, influencing people, etc, are all skills.

Agreed, and I want to highlight this here:

What a LOT of people are getting at is that they expect these "average" policemen, who are sometimes below average (let's be honest), to somehow be able to negotiate as well the secretary of state, do it with people who are angry/upset, AND with people who speak a different language (culturally). And that's just crazy with the way the structures are set up right now. And yelling at cops, as if they're the problem, isn't getting anyone what they want

The expectations set forth by the perception are just far too great for what they're asking. There's absolutely no possibility whatsoever that I can train to deal with every single situation that arises. Every call is different, and unique. There's no such thing as routine. And, no two interactions will be the same. The video that prompted this whole debate is a clear example of that. Those officers who shot that guy in Pasco, Washington had dealt with that guy before, and the last encounter, he tried to take a gun from an officer. They were able to tackle and subdue him for roughly the same thing (throwing objects at people), but this time, things went differently. He was able to get away from a Taser and officers trying to control him, and continued to throw rocks at them.

Mentally disturbed person gets shot? Need more Mental Illness training. I receive 40 hours of training on that subject in the Academy. Short of becoming a certified psychologist, what other training do I need? I'm not there to diagnose the guy, I'm there to deal with the threat. And if that threat is against me or someone else, it's irrelevant that the guy is mentally unstable. Want someone that's certified to talk with someone every time there's a crisis? Get the city/county/state to pay that $100,000+ salary in every city 24/7, 365, and be in an on-call status at any time, day or night. But, do not expect the police to have that capability, because that's not what the police are trained to do and it's not realistic to have that expectation that the police are going to perform that function. There's far too many responsibilities already on an LEO's plate.

With that being said, I do believe that continuing education in that type of training would be ultra-beneficial. I would love to go through annual or semi-annual refresher courses, and blocks of training to deal with an EDP. Scenario-based training on that subject is paramount to development of skillsets, and it's been proven to save lives. However, city and council planning sessions are already strapping budgets heavily to save money. Police and Fire are the first to get budgets slashed at Fiscal Planning sessions. Our department can't even afford to get their multi-million dollar Body Camera system off the ground because of budget shortfalls. Hell, we used to certify twice a year for handgun, and because of budget constraints, it's been cut to annual re-certifications. I don't even get a re-certification in hand-to-hand combat anymore, and it's the skillset I use the most at my job! What am I supposed to do about that? Nothing. I can't do anything to fix that.

The system is definitely fucked. I'm not disagreeing with that. But, the street-level officer can't change or influence some of these issues. It takes people much higher than us to start the process. Look at the problems in Ferguson. Such an uproar over Michael Brown's death, and the corrupt system in place there. People had the opportunity to change that system, and put people in power to change it. Only 17% of the population even bothered to show up when it came down to it, and another year of corrupt politicians will stay in power.

Nephlite is really punching himself in the dick here. Ty for your service Nob's

Punching myself in the dick for what? Not saying "Sorry, you're right. You're a vet. I should know better." No self respecting member of any service thinks like that, and if a member has that expectation, then they should be punched in the dick. Just because you served, doesn't mean you're entitled to anything. You earn that respect. It's not given to you on a silver platter. You have to continue to uphold the traditions set forth to you from the moment you graduate as a sock, to the day you die. If you expect it, or feel you're entitled to it just because of that, then you don't deserve that. That would be like me demanding free coffee or donuts because I'm a cop. It's disrespectful to the badge, and goes against my ethical principals as a cop to expect that type of handout.

And if you don't have those skills, don't be a cop.

That's like saying accurate hand movements, attention to detail, intelligence, people skills, and calmness under pressure are skills of a surgeon but we should totally understand if they kill someone and it's okay to not have those skills.

As a regular person who is not Law Enforcement, do you have these skills?

[Thunder]

And if you don't have those skills, don't be a cop.

That's like saying accurate hand movements, attention to detail, intelligence, people skills, and calmness under pressure are skills of a surgeon but we should totally understand if they kill someone and it's okay to not have those skills.

Uh, if someone developed those skills they wouldn't be ordinary cops

It IS ok for cops not to have those skills - people have to be living under rocks to not see that the worst these "crazy cop stories" can do to a cop is force their resignation

As for your surgeon comparison... if they were paid shit money and had little fear of real consequences.... yeah, we should understand if they kill someone and it's okay to not have those skills

I know what you want (I think) and I'd like it too. But having all of our cops be silver tongued devil-men who can coerce anybody into anything is pretty far fetched. But I'm all for change.. except yelling at the cops who do a shit job is pretty meaningless. It isn't their fault as much as it is the system's - but who wants to try and change that amirite? Let's rally though. And spread the word! Ya, spreading the word is gonna do a lot of good, lmao