Ridiculous Police News (Specific events)

[Ksandra]

I don't think running was what escalated it to him being shot. And more than most others here, I get fight or flight, and don't see how that applies here considering he drew the attention to himself.

What do you think escalated him to being shot? Because he was running away when it happened.

[Aragon of Odin]

I'd say rock throwing was a bigger factor than the running itself.

[Aragon of Odin]

I'd say rock throwing was a bigger factor than the running itself.

I know most people are thinking "it's just rocks" etc, but, I sit in a different position being that I have only ever been completely ko'd once in my life, and it was at the hands of someone throwing a rock, and no, that was not even close to the most serious/dangerous thing that has ever happened to me. Yes, I admit it was most likely just a fluke, or just connected in the "right" spot, but it still happened.

Edit: Had meant to edit my post, not quote myself lol

[Nephlite]

Oh. Ok cool. I thought you were basically throwing out hypotheticals that you didn't actually care about, that you'd already decided they were definitely in the right/open and shut/sprinkle some crack on him and let's go mode.

It's never this simple. If it were, then I'd be out of the job.

What's funny is a lot of people don't think the police do a good job of investigating their own. I'd like to say in my personal experience, that's just plain not true. We are extremely hypercritical of our own, simply because we cannot believe that one of our own would do such a thing. We investigate the shit out of everything, to the point of insanity. We pursue every angle and every question with such regard that other shit, less important shit, gets backburnered until our fellow officer is vindicated.

And then, you pursue it so hard, that it's a shock to the system when you find out it's true, that one of your own violated the oath. How could this have happened? What the fuck were you thinking?

And then, you remember that even your fellow cops are human, with real weaknesses and real vices and they make real mistakes in life. You remember there's always two sides of the story, your buddies and the perps (though, you trust your partner more than a scumbag). You remember why it's important to look at all the sides of the picture, and why it's especially important when dealing with dirty cops.

I don't necessarily think this was an unjustified shooting, but then, I don't think it was justified either. Either way, I know what I would have done, why they did it, what their thinking was when they did it, and what my training tells me. I lean more towards the justified portion because I have been in similar situations and can empathize with the officers.

[Thunder]

We are talking about this particular scenario. So, yes if you just hold up your hands and say, "eh, they did their best," in this situation I don't think you value life like I do. And no, it doesn't have to be sinister, that's your twist not mine.

I was just defining benign - sinister is an antonym whether you want it to be or not lol

I never commented on the rock throwing incident because I know it's a trap. It's a shit situation that came from any number of unfortunate events/thoughts/biases coming together. Doesn't change the fact that cops and other emergency response teams should be trained to value their life over others

Are accidents and shitty people going to make mistakes? Yeah.. does that kind of training LEAD to some accidents? Of course. But I think an interesting conversation could be had at the intersection between these police-fuck-ups and the fuck-ups that would happen if you tried employing and training a police force of saints who try and put the lives of others above their own.

That said, I agree and I know Neph agrees that more communication, coercion, negotiating training would be wonderful. But drilling into police officer's heads that civilian lives are greater than their own... that's destined for trouble

[Ksandra]

I was just defining benign - sinister is an antonym whether you want it to be or not lol

Yes, but you were the one that took it to the extreme with my post.

I never commented on the rock throwing incident because I know it's a trap. It's a shit situation that came from any number of unfortunate events/thoughts/biases coming together.

Well, that's what I am talking about.

That said, I agree and I know Neph agrees that more communication, coercion, negotiating training would be wonderful. But drilling into police officer's heads that civilian lives are greater than their own... that's destined for trouble

According to Neph, change isn't going to happen, and all that you listed requires change.

[Thunder]

According to Neph, change isn't going to happen, and all that you listed requires change.

Well, he did agree that the communication, negotiation, coercion stuff would be great... but he's kind of right to be skeptical of change happening. Country's having trouble getting the body-cam stuff to everyone - a multi million dollar endeavor. We're barely scraping enough money for more accountability. Meaningful change, the kind I think (and the kind neph's said like 5 pages ago) is reeeeally far from coming on its own. Unless some city official trailblazes some new fangled policy, there's no way it's happening any time soon.

Well, that's what I am talking about.

Well it's not really fair to current policy to judge it on the most extreme case of misjudgement that you can find, no? I don't think the alternative of "my life > yours" should be taught to cops because then they wont be able to do as good as a job with the things they -are- doing a good job with today

I mean, do you think the issue is that the "my life > yours" is at some kind of propaganda level that it's brainwashing cops into being more arrogant/careless/something? Or do you think it needs to go away and be replaced with policy that drills into the heads of cops that "civilian life > yours"?

[NynJa]

Probably. So now that I understand your line of thinking in how you came to the conclusion of taxing the rich, I think that would be a great addition to the things I listed. Maybe it will actually solve the problem of the rich getting richer, but somehow, I doubt it. They will find other ways to hoard their money or they will leave the US for places that reward the rich. Call me cynical, but unless the US closes all tax loopholes and sets a flat, standard tax rate for everyone (including businesses), changing tax code will just move the money out of America.

How many other places are there in the world where a business can run its business while hiding behind loopholes? You can say third world countries with child labor n shit, but that child labor only turns profitable when they start selling their shit to first world countries.

[Salodin]

What I'm getting here is that, individually, cop lives are worth less then civilian lives.

Even if in context it might seem that a cops life is not in danger, that is irrelevant if the cop feels his life is in danger at any particular point. 3 vs 1 might seem like an easy win otherwise, but if just one of those cops thinks he's gonna be seriously injured or killed by a suspect then he is being met with equal force. Are you guys considering one individual officers perspective at all? Cause that is literally the only thing that matters.

[chazzyphizzle]

if you seriously think anybody in this thread thinks cop lives are worth less than civilian lives i dont know what to say

[Salodin]

They might not mean it or think it, but that's what they're saying. It doesn't matter if it was 10 vs 1, if just one cop feels at any point his life is in danger then he has every right to met that deadly force equally. Of course, it has to be reasonable to assume that the situation is deadly; do people not think a large rock is dangerous? Have you guys never been hit with even a small rock thrown with purpose?

[Ksandra]

They might not mean it or think it, but that's what they're saying. It doesn't matter if it was 10 vs 1, if just one cop feels at any point his life is in danger then he has every right to met that deadly force equally.

You highlight what is my issue in this and many cases. Is it equal force? I don't agree. When you are in a position of power, you need to make sure you don't use it excessively.

fwiw, I am extremely anti gun. That goes for cops and civilians alike. I don't agree with the whole idea of shooting people who come onto your property either. I am not going to give cops a leeway I don't give to civilians.

[jmc]

Well I don't usually carry any rocks to throw at anyone that is throwing rocks at me!

(I swear to god if you guys don't get the sarcasm )......

[NynJa]

Well obviously you should, tazers are too dangerous

[jmc]

My city doesn't allow tazers.

I have OC spray, a ASP, and my glock.

[Acevalefor]

Well I don't usually carry any rocks to throw at anyone that is throwing rocks at me!

How can you say that? You would just shoot someone with a rock?

/grin...

[Acevalefor]

My city doesn't allow tazers.

I have OC spray, a ASP, and my glock.

Speaking of OC, do they have OC in Pasco and was it used in this situation?

[kuronosan]

It's essential you realize I don't wish harm on Neph or any cop and I 100% support their right to self-defense, even lethal, when necessary.

The question we, as citizens, have a right to ask, is when it's necessary.

The problem is the grey area of "I feel threatened".

It's a subjective emotion and is quickly starting to become not a matter of judgment but a matter of kill or be killed.

Case in point, if Neph shot a guy moving towards him with a paper clip saying "I'm gonna kill you coppa" and reasonably feared for his life, I'm no one to judge his choice.

What's a reasonable fear? How do you measure that? 3 cops gun down a guy throwing rocks were reasonably afraid? What if they're under stress or have PTSD and reasonable is "he looked at me funny and I thought I saw a gun" or "no need to investigate these people always carry guns"?

There's no excuse for negligence. There's always room for bad judgment.

My issue with him is he seems to revel in the idea of gunning down perps in the name of justice if he feels threatened. But what is threatened?

How dangerous have the people shot in the last few months really been?

Instead of being a dick, Neph could take the opportunity to teach and educate people. Instead, he belittles them when they disagree with his logic.

I've actually agreed with him on several things to his elation, and when I don't suddenly I don't know how to read or I'm running at him with a pitchfork.

This is the problem with current law enforcement. I respect their ability to do their job and support measures they feel are necessary. The question is, how necessary are they really?

[noblemountain]

Alright, so, didn't wanna get into this here...

Police training needs to go beyond emphasizing the severity of the risks that officers face by taking into account the likelihood of those risks materializing. Policing has risks—serious ones—that we cannot casually dismiss. Over the last ten years, an annual average of 51 officers were feloniously killed in the line of duty according to data collected by the FBI. In the same time period, an average of 57,000 officers were assaulted every year (though only about 25 percent of those assaults result in any physical injuries). But for all of its risks, policing is safer now than it has ever been. Violent attacks on officers, particularly those that involve a serious physical threat, are few and far between when you take into account the fact that police officers interact with civilians about 63 million times every year. In percentage terms, officers were assaulted in about 0.09 percent of all interactions, were injured in some way in 0.02 percent of interactions, and were feloniously killed in 0.00008 percent of interactions. Adapting officer training to these statistics doesn’t minimize the very real risks that officers face, but it does help put those risks in perspective. Officers should be trained to keep that perspective in mind as they go about their jobs.

from : http://www.theatlantic.com/national/...rguson/383681/
(the entire article is a good read)

As far as your claims about your training? Anecdotal bullshit while there are plenty of articles out there talking about the opposite.


http://www.policeone.com/training/ar...u-be-shooting/

a quick google shows this article from a cop website saying that the average department trained twice a year for 15 hours. In that same article the guy talks about how less than half the people he taught admitted to firing their duty weapons more than once a year in their training. You claim you were infantry. What kind of unit were you in that trained so little? The god damned national guard train once a month.

Back on the topic of this thread...again...

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/in-fair...ting-1.2960995

fucking wow

[Thunder]

It's essential you realize I don't wish harm on Neph or any cop and I 100% support their right to self-defense, even lethal, when necessary.

The question we, as citizens, have a right to ask, is when it's necessary.

The problem is the grey area of "I feel threatened".

It's a subjective emotion and is quickly starting to become not a matter of judgment but a matter of kill or be killed.

Case in point, if Neph shot a guy moving towards him with a paper clip saying "I'm gonna kill you coppa" and reasonably feared for his life, I'm no one to judge his choice.

What's a reasonable fear? How do you measure that? 3 cops gun down a guy throwing rocks were reasonably afraid? What if they're under stress or have PTSD and reasonable is "he looked at me funny and I thought I saw a gun" or "no need to investigate these people always carry guns"?

There's no excuse for negligence. There's always room for bad judgment.

My issue with him is he seems to revel in the idea of gunning down perps in the name of justice if he feels threatened. But what is threatened?

How dangerous have the people shot in the last few months really been?

Instead of being a dick, Neph could take the opportunity to teach and educate people. Instead, he belittles them when they disagree with his logic.

I've actually agreed with him on several things to his elation, and when I don't suddenly I don't know how to read or I'm running at him with a pitchfork.

This is the problem with current law enforcement. I respect their ability to do their job and support measures they feel are necessary. The question is, how necessary are they really?

The last question is weirding me out. I think they're pretty necessary

But I agree, the negligence/bad judgement stuff is basically semantics and going nowhere

I'm already pretty OK with the mishaps going on, even though I think it sucks and is unfair that the guy attacking police with rocks was gunned down. Just by virtue that mishaps, misjudgements, etc will happen and we're spending too much time analyzing the state of policing based on the absolute worst case around.

I'd be super duper ok with whatever mishaps happened if I was confident cops had some better communication skills and that lethal force is more likely the right choice. That kyle dinklheller guy didn't know how to talk to an old vietnam vet and got killed for it. Most cops who fuck up with poor people/minorities today (is it any wonder there isn't this much weird over escalation vs rich people?) I would bet my life didn't communicate properly with them. If you try and talk to 3 venture bankers on the street vs a bakery owner vs a college student you had better be communicating to them each differently if you want the most cooperation

I think a LOT of mishaps happen because communication sucks and the policeman reverts to YELLING AT YOU TO GET THE FUCK DOWN. And man, if you do that to the blax(sry racism) that I went to school with you're challenging their social proof and they feel obligated to reciprocate and disrespect you right back. So it turns into a huge over escalation over the policeman wanting compliance and the other guy wanting respect. And it isn't just black people, obviously, I feel as though anyone in the lower tiers of socio-economics values respect, pride, and all that other shit way more than someone with a little more financial freedom.

In any sort of high-end marketing/sales this is the utmost importance to success. Know your "customer", speak their language. In the first few seconds you better recognize if they're a pragmatic type, action type, social type, emotional type, etc etc etc. I don't think cops get any sort of that training. And if they went out and did it on their own, they'd quit being a cop and do safer, more lucrative, and more fun stuff elsewhere lol