Ridiculous Police News (Specific events)

[Nephlite]

It's not even that risky of a job. http://www.bls.gov/iif/oshwc/cfoi/cfoi_revised10.pdf

It's about 4 times safer than being a farmer. That's why this whole "100% justified" bullshit is disgusting and needs to stop.

In terms of deaths, you're right. Taken from that same year, there's a little over twice as many farmers as there are LEO's. In 2010, there were 161 LEO deaths in the US, and 476 farming related deaths. 1,830,000 farming related jobs compared to about 900,000 LEO jobs. Double the amount of deaths for LEO's if there were as many jobs as farmers and you get about 322 deaths a year based off the same sample.

The leading cause of farmer deaths were overturned tractors. They have more workplace related injuries, the majority due to machinery. That's an inherently dangerous job because of their every day function (i.e. daily use of machines).

http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/topics/aginjury/

The leading cause of death for police officers is firearms related deaths.

http://www.nleomf.org/facts/officer-...ta/causes.html

Just a simple comparison but, police officers die more frequently of violence than farmers do.

I get the comparison you were trying to make. Farming is a dangerous job no doubt and it's an essential function for the good of mankind. They don't hold a candle to the amount of violence a police officer has to deal with. With the exception of firefighters, they're exposed to more death, destruction, contamination (biological and chemical), and hostility than any other profession (with maybe the exception of a tow truck driver). Very rarely do you see someone shooting, spitting, beating, belittling, harassing, or stabbing a firefighter. That's because firefighters save people. We enforce. A farmer doesn't go through PTSD, get shot or stabbed just about every day, deal with disorderly patrons or domestic abuse suspects, nor do they clean up bloody highway accidents or catch killers. Cops do.

Until you can make the judgement call yourself standing on this side of the fence, you have no right to tell an LEO what is justified and what isn't in their mind at the time of death breathing down your neck. You get jaded, much like a veteran does coming back from a tour. Loud noises frighten you. You're constantly looking over your shoulder and you carry your gun everywhere because every day you know it could easily be your last. Yet you try to live on like a normal person. You have kids, get married, go to bars, go to school, have friends, play video games, become a super nerd (like me), all while knowing that when you turn the corner, you can run in to Jimmy you just busted last night for beating his girlfriend and he's out on bail looking to kill the first cop who got him in to this mess.

I said before a very small percentage of Police Officer work is a train wreck of gun shots and dead bodies. That larger percentage is (on a typical run sheet) doing a car jump, giving directions, checking Pappy Dean's bushes for his kitty Frisco, pulling over dumb people for making illegal U-Turns or running red lights, checking on homeless people who haven't moved in a day or two to see if they're alive because no one else will or no one else gives a shit to, helping Sally get checked in to the battered women's shelter because she's a prostitute and is ineligible for victim's assistance programs and doesn't have any money for a hotel, and all the while driving in endless circles for hours to deter someone from committing a robbery on that block or shooting the guy who stepped on their shoes at the club a few hours ago.

And Church is right. We don't take risks that you aren't willing to take. Therefore why would you, a reasonable person, take the risk of getting shot knowing you very well have the chance to stop them before it happens? We don't take risks because people in our position get dead that way. Risks are just part of the job afterall. Simply putting the uniform on, in itself, is a big friggin' risk because now you're a target. Ask yourself: "When I go to work today, is there a chance I'll meet the one person in 300 million that hates me just because of my profession and will try to kill me?" Now ask yourself this: "When I go to work today, will one of the 300 million people in this country who hates me kill me today?" How's that line of thinking for morning reflection time when you wake up?

[Thunder]

That kind of morning reflection is pretty unhealthy

I bet I, as a regular citizen, am in danger with people that I wouldn't be if I had a police uniform on.

I find it weird to be drawing some kind of validation out of the danger you're put in and all the "judgement calling". Forgive me, but it sounds like a pretty big power trip and someone with that much power should have more responsibility for their actions. You say most police work is mundane BS and also stress the weight of danger around the next corner? Sounds like if a guy jumps out of a car at you the chances of him shooting you dead are slim but you still advocate for deadly retaliation. I don't get it because it looks like any danger facing a cop is probably way less than lethal yet if the cop gets frightened by it they can respond lethally and feel good about that decision

That last bit is pretty important too because from what I'm seeing there's a social narrative that supports cops being above others. ie, in your example of guy jumping out of car in gun stance with no gun when facing several cops... the cop should shoot without taking the very risky extra bit of time to make sure if that is a gun or not - basically taking a chance at someone living and him dying or both living but I think the chances of the former are slimmer than the ladder (which is the crux of my issue) which would mean the most ethical/moral/best/etc decision the cop could make is to take the risk of making sure of the situation before acting on someone's life

[Nephlite]

That kind of morning reflection is pretty unhealthy

I bet I, as a regular citizen, am in danger with people that I wouldn't be if I had a police uniform on.

There is a certain validity to being preyed upon because you don't have the uniform on. Most people don't think about it like that till it happens. Just about every person I come in contact with who's a victim of something (assault, robbery, burglary) always says "I never thought it would happen to me..." Really, it goes without saying you can't and shouldn't live in fear. I mean this is America. Nothing ever happens in America. If you live in fear then you are controlled, and when you are controlled, you're prey for those who take advantage of the weak.

I find it weird to be drawing some kind of validation out of the danger you're put in and all the "judgement calling". Forgive me, but it sounds like a pretty big power trip and someone with that much power should have more responsibility for their actions. You say most police work is mundane BS and also stress the weight of danger around the next corner? Sounds like if a guy jumps out of a car at you the chances of him shooting you dead are slim but you still advocate for deadly retaliation. I don't get it because it looks like any danger facing a cop is probably way less than lethal yet if the cop gets frightened by it they can respond lethally and feel good about that decision

It is a huge amount of responsibility. The ability to judge and carry out a sentence in an instant (in this case, execution) requires a large amount of responsibility. That's not to say that we aren't dismissing our actions or not taking responsibility FOR that action. Every cop who draws that weapon out knows what happens afterwards. It's drilled in to our heads from day one. Immediate suspension, Use of Force Inquiry, possible trial and jail time, charges being brought against you, it all goes through your head in that instant. You question yourself. You doubt your actions. You get sick. Not just physically but mentally sick. Clinically, every cop who's been in any OIS even if it isn't fatal or an extreme incident where a life is at stake, is technically mentally unfit for duty and should be discharged. Most people make it. Others don't. If you're cleared of responsibility and it turns out you were justified, then you move on. It's always there, though. Months and even years after you're paying for it. If you aren't justified? You deal with it. You never really feel good about either situation though. Justification of your actions is a small (very small) portion of it but it requires a different level of mental capacity to understand why you did it. Not everyone can rationalize or justify it unless it's happened to you.

That last bit is pretty important too because from what I'm seeing there's a social narrative that supports cops being above others. ie, in your example of guy jumping out of car in gun stance with no gun when facing several cops... the cop should shoot without taking the very risky extra bit of time to make sure if that is a gun or not - basically taking a chance at someone living and him dying or both living but I think the chances of the former are slimmer than the ladder (which is the crux of my issue) which would mean the most ethical/moral/best/etc decision the cop could make is to take the risk of making sure of the situation before acting on someone's life

The only reason I'm saying it's justified is because of the circumstances leading up to the shooting. Run comes out for suicidal person with a gun. You don't know who he is, what he's doing, what the circumstances are but all you know is he's suicidal and he has a gun. You hit the scene lights and sirens, probably almost kill a few people or yourself in the process and your adrenaline is up. Guy stops, your standard reactionary stop behind the driver about 15-20 yards out and you order him out. Standard "Hands up! Both hands out the window! Open the door from the outside! Step out slowly!" turns in to him motioning in the vehicle (sign of a cross or could be grabbing the gun) and jumps out holding an object and levels it at you and your partners.

Action is always faster than reaction. We're not trained, nor are we stupid enough to take extra time to check to make sure the safety on the gun pointed at your face is off or the gun is an airsoft before we react to it. It's all one fluid motion. Jerky and morally punishing, but the alternative is dead. No one wants to die. We know someday it's going to happen, but we don't want it to happen. Power breeds that line of thinking I admit, but too many of us have either faced the horror of a real gun fight to our face or have been through enough training and heard enough stories for us to believe it'll happen to us.

And the last little bit:

"This is a classic case of suicide by cop. The individual, when they put him in the ambulance, thanked one of our sergeants for doing what he had to do," said Camden.

http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?sec...cal&id=9169666

If this is true then even the guy who was shot knew he fucked up and is dealing with the consequences. Suicide by cop isn't a thing, but it's still very very real.

[Plow]

Just a simple comparison but, police officers die more frequently of violence than farmers do.

[chiyio]

In terms of deaths, you're right. Taken from that same year, there's a little over twice as many farmers as there are LEO's. In 2010, there were 161 LEO deaths in the US, and 476 farming related deaths. 1,830,000 farming related jobs compared to about 900,000 LEO jobs. Double the amount of deaths for LEO's if there were as many jobs as farmers and you get about 322 deaths a year based off the same sample.

The rate is per 100,000. Nothing you are saying makes any sense when you don't seem to understand what the report even says.

Adding more jobs won't change the rate.

It's just a simple fact that 4 times as many people die (per 100,000) farming than do in LEO work. I'll grant you that less probably die of being shot verses run over by a tractor though, heh.

Self employed(wtf), construction, transportation, manufacturing... all of these are statistically much more likely to get oneself killed. LEO is just about dead even with installation and maintenance jobs (that takes a little of the glamor out of it).

I get what you are saying and I'm sure it's a rough job and you get a lot of hate, but you're overplaying the danger of the job.

[Thunder]

^

Cool, thanks for the explanation.

I somehow thought cops should be above very natural self preservation instincts for "the greater good" while saying they are no better than regular people - which is pretty hypocritcial

I still think that kind of stuff is wrong, but I do recognize that cops are regular people and shouldn't be held to a high/noble standard

[Blubbartron]

Cool, thanks for the explanation.

I somehow thought cops should be above very natural self preservation instincts for "the greater good" while saying they are no better than regular people - which is pretty hypocritcial

I still think that kind of stuff is wrong, but I do recognize that cops are regular people and shouldn't be held to a high/noble standard

Wrong. Wrong wrong wrong. <insert Dr. Cox gif here>

Cops must absolutely be held to a higher standard, because we give them power and authority over the rest of us. If you don't hold those in power to a higher standard, you get the bullshit that we're currently dealing with on a daily basis (cops with itchy trigger fingers - both with guns and tasers, people getting cited/arrested out of spite for "disrespecting" the officer, etc).

[Churchill]

Yea that's sort of asinine.

The day I can beat the shit out of a cop for disrespecting me without penalty is the day I would accept that answer.

[Thunder]

They're just regular people - try and find regular people willing to be as good natured as an ideal cop "should" be. Then see if you have even half of the police force we have now

It's hard enough finding people who are "natural" at it (and if they are natural at it I'm betting they wont go on to be a cop), but it's damn tough to tell someone their social skills, empathy, collaboration, negotiation, diplomacy, etc need work and even harder to get someone to work on it as hard as someone would need to get really good at it. I don't for a second think it wouldn't be ideal to expand social education into police training (hell, everyone could make more money and be happier in any job for that matter) but that's kind of idealistic, isn't it?

This is the internet after all but how often to people miss a chance at trying to humiliate someone? lol. It's pretty tough; and I don't expect a regular person to be above it.. and a cop is just a regular position as far as I'm concerned considering the amount of cops the US employs and their requirements

[BaneTheBrawler]

they dont get trained/paid to be regular. if you're a cop and you act like a regular guy you're a shitty cop.

[Thunder]

Yeah, I dunno. Neph makes a good case that they are just regular people with regular instincts. I'd imagine the "higher level" so to speak law enforcement get better at this kind of thing because they're able to pick up on things but I doubt they receive any formal training in any kind of emotional intelligence. It's only become a big thing among corporate ceos and I'm betting it will trickle through the private sectors first and even high school teachers before cops get that sort of thing en mass

I recognize they get somewhat specialized training for their job - just like any job out there. But I'm also very sure they do not get sufficient instruction on empathy, collaboration, diplomacy, negotiation, etc. I know cops are pretty good at talking down to people in a "I don't give a fuck about you, I want the information" kind of way that you'd imagine a boss talking down to a bad employee (ie, hiding information/emotion from a cop is strangely difficult face-to-face) but I don't even think they get formal training on that, do they? It's just something anybody would pick up on having on a suit of literal power

[BaneTheBrawler]

bad/incomplete training doesn't absolve them of being shitty cops, or of being shitty people, or mean they shouldn't be held to a higher standard. it means their training is almost as shitty as they are. People refer to their "profession" and shit. You know what a professional is without professionalism? A trained asshole.

[Thunder]

Yeah, I like what you're saying but then don't you have to say that for everyone and not just cops? ie, it's just as important for a cop to be a good person as the next "profession" no? Doctors, lawyers, cops, teachers, administrator, bosses, actors, plumbers, astronauts etc all interact with people and need their social skills high if they want to be "good" people. Why should a cop be held to higher standards? It's just a regular job that most people could do (currently)

[BaneTheBrawler]

Yes, but especially anyone in a position of authority. And we're not talking about making them celibate philanthropists, we're talking the standards that the jobs requires by its nature. If you're going around abusing your power, you're not good at your job. If you're not good at your job then why are you there?

And they're not really being held to a higher standard, the semantics are just a bit blurry because behavior is more difficult to quantify ("You didn't tell me I COULDN'T!" This doesn't work for defendants and it doesn't work for children. Why should it work for cops?). You steal shit from your work and they catch you. What happens? You get fired. Because you abused your position. Part of your job was to not steal from your employer. Just like part of being a cop is not being a dirty cop.

[Nephlite]

The rate is per 100,000. Nothing you are saying makes any sense when you don't seem to understand what the report even says.

Adding more jobs won't change the rate.

It's just a simple fact that 4 times as many people die (per 100,000) farming than do in LEO work. I'll grant you that less probably die of being shot verses run over by a tractor though, heh.

Self employed(wtf), construction, transportation, manufacturing... all of these are statistically much more likely to get oneself killed. LEO is just about dead even with installation and maintenance jobs (that takes a little of the glamor out of it).

I get what you are saying and I'm sure it's a rough job and you get a lot of hate, but you're overplaying the danger of the job.

If you read the report from my link (The CDC website), it lists total deaths in that year for that profession, and per 100,000 is 26.1 deaths. So I will say back to you:

Nothing you are saying makes any sense when you don't seem to understand what the report even says.

I would implore you to do some ride-alongs with your local police department. Municipality preferred but if you can do a County unit that has a nice middle of the ground "baddish" neighborhood, then do that one. Also to learn more, enroll yourself in a citizens academy. It's (usually) an eight-week program designed to show people the realities of police work and if you get in a good one, you can get some credits towards college, a head start on being a police officer, and the richer agencies have simulators you can get in to.

Cops must absolutely be held to a higher standard, because we give them power and authority over the rest of us. If you don't hold those in power to a higher standard, you get the bullshit that we're currently dealing with on a daily basis (cops with itchy trigger fingers - both with guns and tasers, people getting cited/arrested out of spite for "disrespecting" the officer, etc).

I agree with you 100% that we should be held to a higher standard (which we are). The situations where excessive force and rights violations are so few for the greater population of LEO's and it gives us a bad name. Then the media hype afterwards makes it insanely difficult to be subjective in your opinion of the situation. This is why training needs to be so good and on point. The problem (and this isn't new) is that cutbacks to public safety and lack of oversight brings about a society of authoritarian rule. It doesn't mean that we aren't held accountable for our actions and while I think that people who do the videos of refusing checkpoints and shit are giant pains in the ass, it does provide a fundamental "wake-up call" to those policies and procedures that can be seen as "flawed" or just plain ludicrous.

There's no good way to say that you can't train a person to "be" a police officer. It has to come naturally. You have to naturally be empathetic without being sympathetic and learn to think outside the box. You can't let personal feelings get in the way of judgement calls and the rights of people. While I can't stand the WBC, when they came to D.C. I was part of a detail to help protect those idiots. In my personal opinion, I wouldn't have any problem with someone just lining them up and shooting them because they deserve it. Yet, I'm charged with protecting their freedom of speech and right to demonstrate. Makes my skin crawl just being that close to them, but it's the job. I might react a little slower when someone comes up and punches them or kicks them or spits on them, but I have to do it anyways.

bad/incomplete training doesn't absolve them of being shitty cops, or of being shitty people, or mean they shouldn't be held to a higher standard. it means their training is almost as shitty as they are. People refer to their "profession" and shit. You know what a professional is without professionalism? A trained asshole.

If anything, the training is getting better. You hear the stories from old timers where it was once acceptable to take a blackjack and smash the knuckles on a perps hand as punishment instead of arresting them. That was back when Community Oriented Policing was the shit and departments didn't even realize the importance of having foot beat officers who knew everyone in their communities and lived amongst the people. Now you're stuck in a car and don't do any actual foot work. And now with all the specialized training (SWAT, which means Special Weapons and Tactics, not Special Weapons Attack Teams like the media says they are, is a good example) that handle all the dangerous shit. But now as budgets get cut and police forces get cut back, normal beat officers are trained in SWAT/Military tactics so you don't have to wait for specialized units to mobilize before you neutralize the threat.

One of the best pieces of material we read in the academy is The Art of War by Sun Tzu. One of the philosophies taught is "Better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it". This goes hand in hand with modern day policing as the world gets more dangerous and you can't rely on the nations military response to neutralize an ongoing threat. This, in turn, breeds a more aggressive policing model that sometimes makes people more akin to the police state that's being portrayed. But tactics like that are rarely used compared to the bigger picture and is moot at this point.

I somehow thought cops should be above very natural self preservation instincts for "the greater good" while saying they are no better than regular people - which is pretty hypocritcial

I still think that kind of stuff is wrong, but I do recognize that cops are regular people and shouldn't be held to a high/noble standard

I would like to say a police officer is more akin to save someone else than themselves just because of the "Hero Factor". Sometimes it's a natural calling but normal people can do this as well. It's all about being able to act. Normal people don't act when they see something. They walk past, ignore it, try to avoid it because of natural self-preservation. That's why you can't fault police officers for NOT going the hero's route because they are normal people. Sometimes though, LEO's are unwitting hero's that get in to crazy situations and end up saving lives without them even knowing it. It's just a natural reaction for those who are born police officers. Anyone can do it, we just do it more and decide to take a position where we have the authority and the ability to do it more.

I can't remember the exact article or when it happened (or where) but a sheriff's deputy somewhere went to a domestic. Subject wasn't on scene and she was talking with the victim who got the shit knocked out of her by the husband. The officer was alone and was only there for a few minutes while her partners canvassed for the subject. Suddenly, suspect jumps in through the front door with a shotgun and starts blasting at the wife. The deputy didn't have time to react or fire back so she did the only thing she knew, protect the 2 year old child that was sitting next to mom by throwing her body over the child. Saved the kids life too. The suspect was so depraved that he fired at his own child and the deputy saved the childs life by shielding her from the rounds. She died on the spot along with the mother and the suspect killed himself. Normal people don't do stuff like that. Abnormal people, those "hero's", those are the ones who do that.

[Uzor]

Honestly, I don't get all of the cop hate people have. Cops are necessary, and the majority of them do a good job. Of course there's the occasional idiot, but that goes for any profession or group of people. Without cops America would be pretty chaotic. Hell, any civilized country would be a whole lot less civilized if it wasn't for cops. They're a necessary part of modern society.

Being a cop is a very thankless jobs. A lot of times they are met with scorn and hatred on the streets, and yet one of the very people who hate them might at a later point call the cops for whatever reason. They rarely get thanked for the job they do, and even after they've been helped by a cop, they proceed to hate them again stating they're not necessary or do a bad job.

Personally, I'm grateful to cops, and I usually thank them for their job whenever I see them on the street. I can't imagine they get many thanks.

[Rhinox]

That's sweet.

[kuronosan]

I don't hate cops. I hate bad cops.

[Plow]

I don't hate cops. I hate bad cops.

Same. Cop that helped me out after some guy intentionally cut me off hard on a dirt road so that I had to drive off it and hit a mailbox, then went and raged at the dude at his house even though he couldn't actually do anything was cool.

Cops that sat at a 4 way stop for over a minute before I finally went and then pulled me over for failure to yield because I had a big black dude in my car, not so much.

[Acevalefor]

Same. Cop that helped me out after some guy intentionally cut me off hard on a dirt road so that I had to drive off it and hit a mailbox, then went and raged at the dude at his house even though he couldn't actually do anything was cool.

Cops that sat at a 4 way stop for over a minute before I finally went and then pulled me over for failure to yield because I had a big black dude in my car, not so much.

Then there is the Canby Police Department that regularly entraps drivers to gain revenue from their illegal fines.

Or on the opposite end, the Tigard Police Department which trains their officers to put human decency ahead of the letter of the law.

These comparisons can be made across the country. Sometimes it is department policy that is fucked. Sometimes it is individual officers abusing their authority. Sometimes it is individual officers going out of their way to help someone in need. All are exceptions to the normal operation of thousands of law enforcement agencies across the nation.