Ridiculous Police News (Specific events)

[Gregorio]

Not all cops have tazers (I understand in this situation that the officer did, however), and I've never heard of a patrol officer having access to rubber bullets. That being said, it's a personal choice. When going into a situation where deadly force is being used, there is no obligation to slowly escalate up to that. Add into the mix that, like you said, aside from car crashes domestic and family incidents are the most dangerous thing a cop can get into, he was justified in pulling the gun.

[zoobernut]

Not all cops have tazers (I understand in this situation that the officer did, however), and I've never heard of a patrol officer having access to rubber bullets. That being said, it's a personal choice. When going into a situation where deadly force is being used, there is no obligation to slowly escalate up to that. Add into the mix that, like you said, aside from car crashes domestic and family incidents are the most dangerous thing a cop can get into, he was justified in pulling the gun.

The point that Jehryn made is very valid though. As a cop don't you assess a scene as you walk up to it and base your response/actions on the context of what you see? If you are called for a DV call and you walk up to the house with a guy in the yard playing with his dog don't you think you would adjust how you react based on the lack of violence seen and the lack of aggressive behavior on the part of the man? Or do you automatically assume the worst case scenario as you walk up to a house that you were dispatched to?

Anecdote but I think relevant, my dogs got out of my yard one time and ran down the street chasing the garbage truck. They were out for a couple hours and I drove slowly up and down the streets around my house looking and calling for the dogs. At the time I hadn't shaved for a couple weeks and I was wearing a beanie. Even though I was driving my somewhat nice newer truck a bunch of people in the neighborhoods surrounding my street called the cops on me and said I was a creepy guy prowling the streets. Just as I got home and pulled into my driveway with the dogs after I found them the sheriff showed up at my house to investigate. Immediately my dogs came out barking their fucking heads off at her because she was parked in front of our house. Our yard is fenced in but the gate was open. She didn't freak out she just asked me to contain the dogs so I closed the gate on the driveway to keep them in the yard. We then talked for a moment and she realized the mixup told me to have a good day and was on her way. She was really calm about it and polite. I feel like she could have been super paranoid and confrontational and the situation could have gotten out of hand really fast if I had been black, wearing a hoodie, and had purchased some iced tea and skittles from the 7-11 down the street.

Edit: Since then my wife keeps making fun of me by calling me "that creepy guy"...

[Gregorio]

True, but in this incident according to the article it seems like the officer met the man AFTER he left his back yard and was going to his truck. When you arrive somewhere and see someone trying to go for a vehicle it's a different situation than if he was throwing a frisbee to his dog.

[zoobernut]

True but, in this incident according to the article it seems like the officer met the man AFTER he left his back yard and was going to his truck. When you arrive somewhere and see someone trying to go for a vehicle it's a different situation than if he was throwing a frisbee to his dog.

Yeah no one can truly say here because we were not there. From the cops perspective the man could have looked suspicious however there are false calls all the time for DV and other stuff and it is disconcerting when a police officer is so jumpy and defensive that they don't take the context of the scene into account and someone or something gets hurt as a result. I still maintain that the cop could have approached the scene in a different way to minimize risk to himself and by proxy minimize risk to those around him. The police have a responsibility as legal weapon users/carriers to minimize risk to themselves if possible so they don't have to defend themselves in my opinion. Granted you can only go so far and sometimes you just can't avoid a situation in which defending yourself with a gun is absolutely necessary but it just seems like in this case based on how the scene was described that this cop didn't take all those precautions. And as a result I believe this cop owes the dog owner a sincere apology for making a mistake that resulted in the death of his dog.

Edit: and honestly would it have hurt anything or changed anything for the cop if he owned up to it and apologized? It probably would have diffused the situation in a big way and made the man feel at least a little bit better sad but not hateful towards the police at least and I don't think it would have "cost" the cop anything to make that apology except for his ego.

[ronin sparthos]

Edit: and honestly would it have hurt anything or changed anything for the cop if he owned up to it and apologized? It probably would have diffused the situation in a big way and made the man feel at least a little bit better sad but not hateful towards the police at least and I don't think it would have "cost" the cop anything to make that apology except for his ego.

I fully agree and feel that would have been the most appropriate form of action. An eye to eye apology does alot and costs nothing but a few seconds of time.

Many of the BG posts here take the perspective that cops do nothing right and are all unhinged maniacs looking to gun something down human or animal alike. Some of the situations like "where were the rubber bullets??", "it was a harmless breed", "justice must be served!", "fire this guy from his job ASAP", "he didn't wait long enough to shoot" or "use a taser" border on or are completely fucking absurd.

[Gregorio]

Yes, calls often end up to be nothing. A friend of mine had a DV call that turned out being two people having loud sex. I really wanted to see how he wrote that one up. But in this scene, I see nothing wrong with how the officer actually approached the scene at all.

And I'm not defending his tact after the shooting at all. An apology may have gone a long way. But on the other hand it may have been used to crucify him in civil court or something. Who knows with the courts these days.

[Day]

Yes, one can assume his not apologizing is akin to not taking blame, ever, in an accident when trading insurance info etc... still man, fuck, you just killed someone's pet.

[Eurell]

Yeah, I think everyone can agree that he was sorta acting like a dick and definitely should have apologized.

[zoobernut]

I fully agree and feel that would have been the most appropriate form of action. An eye to eye apology does alot and costs nothing but a few seconds of time.

Many of the BG posts here take the perspective that cops do nothing right and are all unhinged maniacs looking to gun something down human or animal alike. Some of the situations like "where were the rubber bullets??", "it was a harmless breed", "justice must be served!", "fire this guy from his job ASAP", "he didn't wait long enough to shoot" or "use a taser" border on or are completely fucking absurd.

I have a blue (the color doesn't make a difference in temperament red and blues are the same) Queensland healer and he is the biggest wuss in the world and will cower and cry over anything but when it comes to our house and property and our vehicles if he is in them he is extremely protective and aggressive. First when it comes to dogs breed has very little to do with it small breeds can be just as aggressive as large breeds and can also cause very serious damage to someone. That aside queensland healers are usually very aggressive when it comes to protecting their family and space. And they are very powerful strong medium sized dogs that will not give up even with pain. They were bred to ignore pain and keep doing their job, my buddy who worked with queensland healers on a ranch saw one get kicked in the head by a cow and it kept running around herding the cows. You shouldn't own a dog at all if you are not prepared to train them and handle them but with a queensland healer you do have to take some special precautions when it comes to how they interact with strangers because they are skittish and jumpy and protective.

My dog will be perfectly fine with someone petting him as long as he can see them until they reach back behind his head and pet him from an angle where he can't see them and it will make him jump.

[Dimmauk]

I have a blue (the color doesn't make a difference in temperament red and blues are the same) Queensland healer and he is the biggest wuss in the world and will cower and cry over anything but when it comes to our house and property and our vehicles if he is in them he is extremely protective and aggressive. First when it comes to dogs breed has very little to do with it small breeds can be just as aggressive as large breeds and can also cause very serious damage to someone. That aside queensland healers are usually very aggressive when it comes to protecting their family and space. And they are very powerful strong medium sized dogs that will not give up even with pain. They were bred to ignore pain and keep doing their job, my buddy who worked with queensland healers on a ranch saw one get kicked in the head by a cow and it kept running around herding the cows. You shouldn't own a dog at all if you are not prepared to train them and handle them but with a queensland healer you do have to take some special precautions when it comes to how they interact with strangers because they are skittish and jumpy and protective.

My dog will be perfectly fine with someone petting him as long as he can see them until they reach back behind his head and pet him from an angle where he can't see them and it will make him jump.

Just be careful around Austin police, they will kindly pet your healer with bullets. The Austin police chief did apologize to the owner personally, but the officer hasn't yet.

[Tyrath]

You know even putting aside whether or not the guy was justified in shooting the dog. Let's say he was. He could still give the man an apology for shooting his fucking dog. The officer's attitude after the actual shooting is downright ridiculous.

[MF Perm tha Fineass]

What am I backpedaling from? My stance has not changed. What was ignorant about my post besides the obvious Superman sarcasm? Let's recap shall we.

1) Cop has gun drawn. Protocol.
2) Cop sees potential suspect.
3) Cop instructs potential suspect to get down.
4) Dog runs from the backyard barking.
5) Cop yells for potential suspect to get the dog.
6) Dog is faster and/or more aggressive than the officer anticipated.
7) Officer shoots dog.

I'm ok with #7. Others, like yourself, wanted the cop to holster his gun and use pepper spray or a taser instead.

I'll reiterate. I'm ok with #7. So what have I backpedaled from? Nice try. Let the big boys discuss this. We'll retrieve you from the kiddie table when we feel you're ready.

You still didn't read the witness account I quoted for you, directly from the OP. The cop drew his gun on the guy with his back turned, he didn't have it drawn walking into the situation. Are you mentally disabled? You made a whole list to rebut a post of mine telling you you didn't read the post and you make a list confirming this. You're clearly retarded.

[MF Perm tha Fineass]

By the by, I don't care if my dog mangles a cop for walking into my back yard drawing a weapon. That could have been anyone. Any dog that will defend its owner in danger is a good dog. Doesn't change the fact that you're retarded, but that's my official stance on the thread.

[Nephlite]

Also, I think it was Valisk that kept saying it was "procedure" to come to domestic violence calls with weapon drawn, is that actual procedure or personal preference due to experience? If I get stopped I expect for an officer to have his hand on his weapon at all times when approaching, but I do not expect the weapon to be drawn.

In this particular case, it would be procedure (at least in my department). It's all based upon the situation and the totality of circumstances. Not every DV call is going to require a response such as this but the information obtained was way too specific for it to be a third party caller, therefore it bumps the call up a notch or two on the priority list. You see, we can't train for every situation. That's just not how people work. You have to train for general things. In the academy, they'll do something like "Ok here's what you do if someone assaults you and it falls in this category on our use of force policy." or "Here's an example of this type of deadly force assault, here's -a- response, and here's where it falls in the use of force policy."

So a strangulation incident for example is a deadly force threat. Deadly force threats are met with deadly force. Simple concept? Not really but here's an example: What if he went to the right house, went in to the house and found the guy standing over his girlfriend strangling her? She's blue in the face and lips, and isn't moving anymore. What do you do? This is a deadly force assault, so if you pulled out your gun and shot the guy, you would be 100% justified. Now some people will say "Use another force option." but to preserve that person's life, you must think about what's reliable and what will do the trick the first time.

Pepper spray is out first because it's a confined space and the spray might hit the victim, which could very well kill her if she's on the brink of death from strangulation. Plus it doesn't mess you up good enough to stop something like that (There are people out there that are immune to pepper spray and it doesn't magically make you comply when you get sprayed). If anything, it might make him squeeze harder.

Tazers are a nice less-lethal option that can preserve life. They are often times the major response protocol for almost every situation and a good majority of deadly force intervention techniques rely on the Tazer. On the flip side of this, there's always room for failure. Believe it or not, some people are immune to the effects of Tazers. Sometimes, user error can mess it up (bad shot) and the device can fail. It's not as reliable per-se as a gun. Also the immobilization the Tazer produces can actually cause your body to lock up. As part of that, your hands squeeze harder involuntarily. So it might make him squeeze harder and kill the victim.

I don't even want to get started on the ASP but impact weapons are hard to use, they're cumbersome, and if the guy is big then you might not cause him any damage (I took a 4-Cell Mag Lite to a guy once and it just pissed him off more than hurt him). You very well can kill the guy or brain him to the point where he can't walk or be paralyzed for the rest of his life (shitty way to die).

All of this information I just typed out is thought about by any officer who's been trained to use all these weapons in the blink of an eye. Ask Jmc. It's not like we don't put this kind of thing in to account before we do what we do. You almost have to.

Tazer would probably be my first choice under similar circumstances but that doesn't rule out that I still wouldn't shoot the guy. You have to know you're willing to go that far when responding to this kind of thing. Naturally, some people are a little more gun-ho and will be the first to shoot someone in that kind of situation but does that mean they weren't justified? These use of force policies were found to be a justified way of dealing with subjects by YOUR peers. They weren't just made up. They're tried and tested and true ways of dealing with people and have been found effective and totally legal IF the officer does techniques that fall within the scope of his training and the parameters of the policy.

[Dimmauk]

So using pepper spray in a confined space is out because fumes, but wouldn't the victim be in danger of being shot if you discharged your weapon in a small space?

[Nephlite]

Sure but what other choice do you have? Just don't miss. It's a risk that we're all willing to take. Wouldn't have taken the oath otherwise. Sometimes, making decisions like that just aren't for some people. That's why some people can't be the police. I'm certain I wouldn't be expected to go through all my use of force options to try to get the guy off the woman when she's about to die. Quick thinking and fast response, that's what the police are known for. Sometimes it's not the right decision.

Then you gotta factor in the danger of trying to save that person's life while you're wrestling around with some knuckle head. So I popped the spray on him and he stopped strangling her. Now what? Huge fight now, struggled with the guy for almost 5 minutes. Meanwhile, victim dies from lack of oxygen to the brain. Could have been saved if I had been able to start CPR sooner. Casualty of war i'm afraid. In fact, now i'm getting brought up on charges from Internal Affairs because the victim's family is suing for violation of response protocols and I loose my job. Family can't sustain itself because i'm the breadwinner and we're homeless.

It's not an easy job. You can't just sit there and be hard on saying "I would never use a gun. Asshole that used the gun should use something else". Being stubborn is good but if you think you have any grasp of the concept of what it takes to be a police officer now a days, then I'll be happy to give you a ride-along and just destroy your perception of what it means to be a cop within 30 minutes of us driving in the hood. Hell we have to have our ride-alongs sign waivers stating they won't sue us if they get injured or killed because it happened so often.

[Valisk]

You still didn't read the witness account I quoted for you, directly from the OP. The cop drew his gun on the guy with his back turned, he didn't have it drawn walking into the situation. Are you mentally disabled? You made a whole list to rebut a post of mine telling you you didn't read the post and you make a list confirming this. You're clearly retarded.

You can see from the video the cop drawing his weapon as hit walks up to the house (and out of the frame). So all you've told me is you don't know the definition of backpedaling but I'm the mentally disabled/retarded one? How about you stop hurling insults and think before you speak. Regardless of how YOU felt the cop should have reacted, we have testimony from 3 cops in this thread and the Austin Police Department confirming that having a weapon drawn was not excessive and a large portion of the time procedure.

Just because a person saw pepper spray and a taser, doesn't mean he gets to dictate and choose what the officer can have in his hand. I read the OP. Read it before you thought it was a good idea to start throwing around insults. Nothing has changed. Now turn around and sit up straight. We'll come get you from the kiddie table when we're done.

[Jeryhn]

Many of the BG posts here take the perspective that cops do nothing right and are all unhinged maniacs looking to gun something down human or animal alike. Some of the situations like "where were the rubber bullets??", "it was a harmless breed", "justice must be served!", "fire this guy from his job ASAP", "he didn't wait long enough to shoot" or "use a taser" border on or are completely fucking absurd.

And Obama is president but everything that's been wrong with the country for the past fifty years is his fault. Recognize a sweeping generalization when you see one?

Many of those questions you listed aren't absurd, actually. With the cop in the mood that he was obviously in at the time, especially granted the lack of empathy for his actions after the fact, if he had taken aim at the man over the dog, every single one of those questions would be relevant. Would you be any more or less outraged if he had shot the guy instead of the dog?

Cop had an itchy trigger finger. He fucked up. Cops that fuck up should be held responsible for their fuck ups. Deal with it.

[Valisk]

By the by, I don't care if my dog mangles a cop for walking into my back yard drawing a weapon. That could have been anyone. Any dog that will defend its owner in danger is a good dog. Doesn't change the fact that you're retarded, but that's my official stance on the thread.

So you make this big argument about me not reading the OP, but then you go and say the cop walked into his backyard drawing a weapon.

Iron much?

[BaneTheBrawler]

Iron much?

OH THE IRON