Opting out

[SwampdonkeyPLD]

No, you're going to need a lot more than that.

Why? You should put all your rebuttal's and support in one post that way I can rebut it all at once.

[Demosthenes11]

damnit swamp, use your brain.

The purpose is to get people to realize their money is leaving their hands that they earned. This goal relies on the fact that people do not take any notice that they are paying income tax.

You want people to actually pay this tax, requiring they do some activity to write checks or mail it or whatever the process would be. This is monumentally more work than what those that pay income tax already have to do, which is nothing. This means far more people will not pay income taxes, or do it incorrectly, thus making it a bureaucratic nightmare.

Oops I forgot. Oops I sent it to the wrong place. Oops I paid the wrong amount. Oops my check bounced. Oops do you take CC?

[Indeed]

I think it's funny that people are like NO, NO, BUSINESSES WILL OVERCHARGE EVERYONE BECAUSE THEY EXIST TO MAKE MONEY! That's true, but it's just as true now with any of the bajillions of operations that are contracted out by the government to privately owned companies. This already takes place. Personally, I'm not so cynical that I believe absolutely every company that exists operates without any regard for the community, the employees, and the people they provide services for. The point of the free market really is to allow the best kind of business to succeed, right? Anyone has the ability to start their own business providing some service, and if consumers actually really give a fuck about how that company chooses to conduct itself, they'll support its success with their money, right? Except, not really. You're not concerned so much with corporations exploiting shit as you are aware of the fact that we as a whole are too stupid and lazy to notice corporations abusing us and actually do anything about it. We need to have government handle things like this for us because we are unwilling to be aware, and we would prefer to remain that way.

[Demosthenes11]

I would certainly love to spend all of my free time researching where I am going to get a burger to ensure I am not support a bad business. same with my dry cleaning. etc. Oh, I also need to be aware of every bill going through congress. And everything local happening. And state. also, there is a local cause I should get into. You also have 3 kids and a fulltime job. Make sure the house is kept.

no

[Greatguardian]

I think it's funny that people are like NO, NO, BUSINESSES WILL OVERCHARGE EVERYONE BECAUSE THEY EXIST TO MAKE MONEY! That's true, but it's just as true now with any of the bajillions of operations that are contracted out by the government to privately owned companies. This already takes place. Personally, I'm not so cynical that I believe absolutely every company that exists operates without any regard for the community, the employees, and the people they provide services for. The point of the free market really is to allow the best kind of business to succeed, right? Anyone has the ability to start their own business providing some service, and if consumers actually really give a fuck about how that company chooses to conduct itself, they'll support its success with their money, right? Except, not really. You're not concerned so much with corporations exploiting shit as you are aware of the fact that we as a whole are too stupid and lazy to notice corporations abusing us and actually do anything about it. We need to have government handle things like this for us because we are unwilling to be aware, and we would prefer to remain that way.

uh huh.

I ignore a lot of psion's posts so I'm not sure which of us you're addressing, but if you're addressing me then I never said that businesses would always run things into the ground. I simply said that the standard free market private enterprise model exists solely to make money. If doing "the right thing" means making more money, businesses will do the right thing. It's not because they care, because as entities they most assuredly do not, but because it makes them more money. As soon as it becomes more profitable for businesses to do the wrong thing, they will do it. It's not their fault per se.

But, you know what, I really do think your use of the word efficiency is misleading. What you want to imply is that private enterprise is able to do the same job with less. What happens in practice is that private enterprise is able to do a shittier job with significantly less but is able to sustain an acceptable customer base through monopolies.

The result for employees? Much shittier work conditions. Why is this acceptable? Because there are no other jobs.

The result for consumers? Much shittier services. Why is this acceptable? Because there are no alternative carriers that will do it any better.

Don't act like the consumer actually benefits from the privatization of human services. They may pay less, but the product quality invariably declines. The only people who benefit from such a system are those who can afford to pay more than they would've in taxes in the first place for a less shitty product, and then only in that they have a better police force for themselves. No one actually retains value when taking the end product into account.

[Indeed]

So your argument is that you're too busy in your daily life to be aware of what's going on either with the government or the businesses you buy from? I mean, the government is constantly handling things so I see how that can be overwhelming, but I'm pretty sire McDonald's and Walmart have comparatively few changes to worry about. How long could it really take to look this shit up? God forbid one of your kids develops Celiac disease or you might actually have to look at the ingredients in everything you buy and eat to not put them through hell every time they eat. Just saying, when things actually are important, you make the time. You get used to living a certain way.

[Indeed]

I'm shocked that people think the government honestly provides them with the highest possible level of quality in everything it does, I suppose.

[hey]

when things actually are important, you make the time. You get used to living a certain way.

Yes, you make the time by not doing other things.

[Greatguardian]

So your argument is that you're too busy in your daily life to be aware of what's going on either with the government or the businesses you buy from? I mean, the government is constantly handling things so I see how that can be overwhelming, but I'm pretty sire McDonald's and Walmart have comparatively few changes to worry about. How long could it really take to look this shit up? God forbid one of your kids develops Celiac disease or you might actually have to look at the ingredients in everything you buy and eat to not put them through hell every time they eat. Just saying, when things actually are important, you make the time. You get used to living a certain way.

Don't be stupid. There's a difference between being willfully ignorant and having no real choice. Big oil is evil. Plain and simple. Sounds so tinfoil hat, but once you actually work with them you know just how bad it can get. But when I'm left with a choice between filling up my tank at an evil big oil station and quitting my job because public transportation does not fucking exist in 90% of this country, I have very little say in the matter.

[hey]

Why? You should put all your rebuttal's and support in one post that way I can rebut it all at once.

Sorry, i thought you could use that giant reason lobe to figure out the things demo explained.

[Greatguardian]

I'm shocked that people think the government honestly provides them with the highest possible level of quality in everything it does, I suppose.

The government is an entity that we can directly control. Business is not. One of these things is safer to entrust vital human services to than the other. How is this difficult to understand?

[Indeed]

Don't be stupid. There's a difference between being willfully ignorant and having no real choice. Big oil is evil. Plain and simple. Sounds so tinfoil hat, but once you actually work with them you know just how bad it can get. But when I'm left with a choice between filling up my tank at an evil big oil station and quitting my job because public transportation does not fucking exist in 90% of this country, I have very little say in the matter.

I was responding to Demos11 over there, with his life being too busy to spend a few minutes on google every day.

The government is an entity that we can directly control. Business is not. One of these things is safer to entrust vital human services to than the other. How is this difficult to understand?

I've honestly never read anything sillier than this. Business is far easier to control than government. You can boycott a business. You can stop buying from a business. The only thing that supports a business in the most direct possible way, is our dollars going to them every day. The problem is that with business, we are more absorbed in getting what we want than actually giving a fuck about how it's provided. If it was revealed today that every ISP in America was only able to provide services to you by torturing kittens, puppies, and unborn babies for the unholy power necessary to provide you internet in your home every day, I can guarantee you almost nobody would cancel their subscription, because we don't feel our lives are possible without the convenience of internet. That is my argument. Businesses are allowed to operate and succeed through the abuse of laws and people, because we are 100% hands off in that market. You will keep buying from any business that is convenient to you, no matter what kind of practices they engage in. Fast food tastes too good and is too cheap for a lot of people to pass up, no matter what's in it, how it's made, who gets paid 5 cents a day and sleeps in a tent with 25 other people in the mud in order to put that $1 burger in your hand. What I'm saying is that we have this utter indignant attitude about the concept of controlling businesses with our dollars. How dare anyone suggest that you go without something or pay more for a product, right? It's silly.

With government, you get to vote and hope that you're in the majority and that your representative actually bothers to vote/represent you know... what you actually think. There's a giant middleman with government, and there are a million checks and balances that mean at any step of a process, something that you think is good legislation can be vetoed or thrown out or lose momentum and become buried. It's a process ten million times longer than just, not buying from XYZ company.

[Greatguardian]

I was responding to Demos11 over there, with his life being too busy to spend a few minutes on google every day.

I've honestly never read anything sillier than this. Business is far easier to control than government. You can boycott a business. You can stop buying from a business. The only thing that supports a business in the most direct possible way, is our dollars going to them every day. The problem is that with business, we are more absorbed in getting what we want than actually giving a fuck about how it's provided. If it was revealed today that every ISP in America was only able to provide services to you by torturing kittens, puppies, and unborn babies for the unholy power necessary to provide you internet in your home every day, I can guarantee you almost nobody would cancel their subscription, because we don't feel our lives are possible without the convenience of internet. That is my argument. Businesses are allowed to operate and succeed through the abuse of laws and people, because we are 100% hands off in that market. You will keep buying from any business that is convenient to you, no matter what kind of practices they engage in. Fast food tastes too good and is too cheap for a lot of people to pass up, no matter what's in it, how it's made, who gets paid 5 cents a day and sleeps in a tent with 25 other people in the mud in order to put that $1 burger in your hand. What I'm saying is that we have this utter indignant attitude about the concept of controlling businesses with our dollars. How dare anyone suggest that you go without something or pay more for a product, right? It's silly.

You act like the Free market system works properly in this country. It doesn't. The big are too big. You can't just make a start up that does things "Right" and compete with large corporations. Doing things right does not turn a profit nearly so well as doing things wrong.

I know you're loving this ability to look down on your countrymen for being unmotivated, slackjawed sheeple because it makes you feel good, but you're the worst type of the lot. Free markets require regulation. Regulation can only come from the government. Businesses cannot self-regulate. Businesses cannot be regulated by their customer base. You think people are pussies for being unwilling to be shot back to the stone age without power, running water, food, or electricity? Fuck off.

[Talint]

Businesses do not like competition with each other; rather they will do everything they can so they are the only game in town.

It's a fundamental flaw in anarcho-capitalist logic. Monopolies fuck shit up something fierce.

[Indeed]

Yeah, that's it. I think people are pussies for being unwilling to live in the stone age. Because there are absolutely no alternatives for anything at all in the world. Looking for fair trade companies and fair trade stamps on products isn't a thing. It's really as simple as just voting with your dollars in some cases. In some cases, it's not. To utterly give up and resign ourselves to the fact that the free market is completely out of control and can never be altered, is equally as ridiculous as your (incorrect) assertion about what I believe. Your same argument could be applied to government. People have to be aware and involved to actually create any sort of deviation from the current perceived misuse or abuse. That's all I'm saying, and it applies to both the free market and to government. I simply think that we all personally do bear some responsibility when it comes to bad business practices, because we don't really do much about it. We don't often alter our behaviors or look for alternatives, or even spend much time being aware of how businesses conduct themselves.

Ultimately though, you're more interested in attacking me personally for what you perceive to be an uppity attitude than you are to actually address anything I had to say about people misdirecting their purchasing power. What is most valued by people is not the methods by which companies operate in order to sell them goods and services. It is primarily a function of price and availability. That's not an uppity remark. That's just the truth. Many people will choose a lower priced product or service over a higher priced product or service without a thought for why there is a difference in price. It is often assumed that a higher price = some company gouging you for more profit. It's never assumed that a company could potentially be providing higher wages or benefits to their employees, suppliers, whatever. That's not something people are exactly clamoring to research.

Edit, and yes, unchecked capitalism is bad. Monopolies are bad. There should be some government regulation and intervention in places where practices become abhorrent. That is an issue. I really do believe though, that just based on the fact that the government ends up so often contracting out their jobs to civilians anyway, that not all privatized companies are ultra terrible in all respects. I mean sometimes they end up authorizing and directly putting the money into the hands of people who are abusing that money, so how does that actually make the government more benevolent or awesome than the assholes they hire? Everyone shares equal blame when things like that happen, and just because money is given to the government, doesn't mean that they're going to use it in the best possible way.

[Greatguardian]

Yeah, that's it. I think people are pussies for being unwilling to live in the stone age. Because there are absolutely no alternatives for anything at all in the world. Looking for fair trade companies and fair trade stamps on products isn't a thing. It's really as simple as just voting with your dollars in some cases. In some cases, it's not. To utterly give up and resign ourselves to the fact that the free market is completely out of control and can never be altered, is equally as ridiculous as your (incorrect) assertion about what I believe. Your same argument could be applied to government. People have to be aware and involved to actually create any sort of deviation from the current perceived misuse or abuse.

Ultimately though, you're more interested in attacking me personally for what you perceive to be an uppity attitude than you are to actually address anything I had to say about people misdirecting their purchasing power. What is most valued by people is not the methods by which companies operate in order to sell them goods and services. It is primarily a function of price and availability. That's not an uppity remark. That's just the truth. Many people will choose a lower priced product or service over a higher priced product or service without a thought for why there is a difference in price. It is often assumed that a higher price = some company gouging you for more profit. It's never assumed that a company could potentially be providing higher wages or benefits to their employees, suppliers, whatever. That's not something people are exactly clamoring to research.

Says the man who's more interested in attacking others personally than addressing the fundamental flaws in relying on free business to handle vital human services?

I can do without an iphone. I don't have a smartphone at all. But you know what I can't just "do without" and "vote with my wallet" for? Police. The fire department. Electricity. Water. You absolutely cannot apply free market principles to basic quality of life services. People do not have the option to not purchase them.

And hey, keep ignoring monopolies some more. When being evil makes more money than being good and the big guys are big enough to crush anyone who challenges them without even trying, there is no competition. There is no alternative. You either give your money to evil, or you take a time machine back to 1612 and start planting crops.

[Indeed]

I can do without an iphone. I don't have a smartphone at all. But you know what I can't just "do without" and "vote with my wallet" for? Police. The fire department. Electricity. Water. You absolutely cannot apply free market principles to basic quality of life services. People do not have the option to not purchase them.

Yes, we cannot apply free market principles to basic quality of life services because people do not have the option to purchase them. We agree there. I'm saying that I would find it interesting to see how the free market could handle that, and if it actually would be any better than what the government provides to us. I think, possibly. Maybe, maybe not. I don't know. I'd be interested to see. Funny how warped that simple observation/statement became. If it weren't provided by the government, something in the free market would come up. I'm just saying I don't necessarily know without a doubt that it would be OMG HORRIBLE, WORST THING TO EVER HAPPEN. Maybe some things could benefit. Maybe some things would not. I'm almost certain that some services could be improved by changing management, and it would simply be interesting to see how that change in quality would be reflected in the price of the service.

[hey]

Yes, we cannot apply free market principles to basic quality of life services because people do not have the option to purchase them. We agree there. I'm saying that I would find it interesting to see how the free market could handle that, and if it actually would be any better than what the government provides to us. I think, possibly. Maybe, maybe not. I don't know. I'd be interested to see. Funny how warped that simple observation/statement became. If it weren't provided by the government, something in the free market would come up. I'm just saying I don't necessarily know without a doubt that it would be OMG HORRIBLE, WORST THING TO EVER HAPPEN.

It may not be the worst thing to ever happen, but it would certainly be worse than what we've got now.

[Greatguardian]

Yes, we cannot apply free market principles to basic quality of life services because people do not have the option to purchase them. We agree there. I'm saying that I would find it interesting to see how the free market could handle that, and if it actually would be any better than what the government provides to us. I think, possibly. Maybe, maybe not. I don't know. I'd be interested to see. Funny how warped that simple observation/statement became. If it weren't provided by the government, something in the free market would come up. I'm just saying I don't necessarily know without a doubt that it would be OMG HORRIBLE, WORST THING TO EVER HAPPEN.

I don't think it is even remotely worth the risk to people's safety and well-being when private enterprise has the kind of track record that it has right now.

Any company that came in to fill the gap would not be starting from the ground up. It would be a subsidiary of an existing large corporation, which would make it inherently evil to some degree or another. Tbh some of the only people I'd actually trust to not fuck something like that up is Google and that's only because they make boatloads of money despite paying $1/yr salaries to their top execs. Google got lucky. They are the exception.

Google Fire would be pretty fucking awesome, though.

Edit: This could also just be because Google control's the world's information and is really so evil that they brainwashed everyone into thinking they're the good guys. Who knows.

[Indeed]

It may not be the worst thing to ever happen, but it would certainly be worse than what we've got now.

The difference between you and me, I suppose, is that I don't necessarily believe that our current government is the most perfect possible option. I'm not sure that I believe without a doubt that they deliver us the highest possible quality of service, or in some cases even a favorable ratio of service to cost.