What's Better?

[Viar]

COR/DNC is great fun in delve. Keeping haste samba up for your party is nice and boxstep can be helpful plus erase and cures. If I know I'm pulling I tend to /rdm... not a lot of time to get haste samba on the mob when you're constantly on the run.

It's possible to pull on COR/DNC though, with regen+dancer roll+PDT- set, if you shoot at max range then run right away with movement speed+(can also blink and do bolter sometimes for even faster movement), you can do very long pulls.

The benefit of pulling on /DNC is that, you have higher damage output than /RDM when you see DD pt getting too many mobs and unable to finish them fast enough, so sometimes you can stop and help kill.

[noodles355]

Ah thanks, I didn't know it can work like that.

Dsva: That item passe my radar! I'll see if i can get hold of one.

Join Date
Jan 2007
Posts
4,357

I don't mean to sound rude, but you've been playing for how long? And you didn't know you can macro in stuyff before and during spells..?

[noodles355]

The benefit of pulling on /DNC is that, you have higher damage output than /RDM

Really? Slightly skeptical.

[Viar]

Really? Slightly skeptical.

How does /RDM even come close to /DNC for fracture fodder farm? You don't get samba(which increases party output depending other member's job/gear)/acc bonus/DW. I'd be much harder to hit 95% hit rate without acc bonus if you don't have high rank augment delve gear and not using hunter or madrigal.

Edit: That's assuming you have delve sword/dagger so you have something to DW.

[noodles355]

/dnc is DW2. Dual Wielding Aphotic/Coruscanti is lower DPS than single-wielding Aphotic.
Mages are unlikely to give cor haste in a pickup. /Rdm hastes it's self.
Accuracy bonus doesn't add anything if you are acc capped, which with sushi you will be.
You will eat sushi, pizza adds no ratk/racc so pointless and cor's acc won't be high enough to eat meat.
Sambas are great if you're fulltime meleein. But you're not. You're pulling most of the time.
/rdm gives 24 MAB towards QD damage. You can ride the 40 second QD timer whilst both pulling and meleeing.
If you still use Wildfire the 24MAB boosts it's dmg too.
If you aren't using wildfire and are getting haste from a mage, you would be better off /war anyway for berserk.

[Obsidian]

True. On the other hand, I'm constantly doing 40% of my party's damage (with 4 DDs) in the last 4 Morimar runs. They ARE shitty runs, 5k each, but still. PUP buffed + average DDs being mediocre even with Delve weapons means any good PUP player will do very well on farming runs.

Parses against PUGs (or, indeed, generally against anyone other than yourself) are effectively meaningless.

[fantasticdan]

Cosigning, both the bit about needing a stupid amount of accuracy and using Pummel

Tbh, meleeing on PUP seems to fall apart beyond delve fodder. Anything higher and your accuracy trails substantially and your HP/lack of reasonable hybrid PDT swaps becomes a liability

The sad thing is, pup also kinda sucks on fodder mobs due to all the time you waste deploying and not swinging.

They should really give pup some kind of stance/attachment/whatever that makes autos auto-engage like wyverns.

[NynJa]

You don't get samba(which increases party output depending other member's job/gear)

You are aware you cant hit the mob once and run away and everyone has haste samba effect until the mob dies, right?

[Viar]

/dnc is DW2. Dual Wielding Aphotic/Coruscanti is lower DPS than single-wielding Aphotic.
Mages are unlikely to give cor haste in a pickup. /Rdm hastes it's self.
Accuracy bonus doesn't add anything if you are acc capped, which with sushi you will be.
You will eat sushi, pizza adds no ratk/racc so pointless and cor's acc won't be high enough to eat meat.
Sambas are great if you're fulltime meleein. But you're not. You're pulling most of the time.
/rdm gives 24 MAB towards QD damage. You can ride the 40 second QD timer whilst both pulling and meleeing.
If you still use Wildfire the 24MAB boosts it's dmg too.
If you aren't using wildfire and are getting haste from a mage, you would be better off /war anyway for berserk.

I said DW 2x delve weapon (sword and dagger)over and over again, why are you mentioning Coruscanti?
Mages should haste COR just like hasting melee, if they don't I spam /tell until they give haste.
I also don't agree with "hasting yourself because mages don't haste", you shouldn't assume your pt member won't do it and use inferior setup for it.
Will you ask DRK to sub WHM and self haste in fracture because mages won't haste?

Ideal buff should be Chaos/fighter/march x2/min. Check spreadsheet, unless you have a high rank augment on delve armor/weapon it's still below cap with sushi. Acc bonus gives more room to gear for TP dmg, and you're getting DW+samba anyways.

Last time I checked, Thurandaut head/rancor/brutal/suppa/thaumas body/dusk+1/rajas/epona/letalis/twilight/thaumas legs/manibozho feet TP set was still below cap with sushi if no acc song/rolls, that I had to use thurandaut+tiercel to hit just a bit below 95% without acc buff. Unless you're sacrificing even more TP dmg for acc or there's a better set I don't know about, I don't see how acc bonus isn't important, especially all my delve augment are rank 2~3 and not a lot of accuracy on them to begin with.

I also don't believe extra dmg from WF/QD from /RDM is better than extra melee DPS, especially if you're pulling, and saving charges for sleeps.

I don't think /WAR single wield > /DNC DW 2 delve weapons. But I may be wrong.

[Viar]

You are aware you cant hit the mob once and run away and everyone has haste samba effect until the mob dies, right?

I'm aware of that, but I wasn't planning to hit the mob once and run away....what's the point to waste engage/disengage time for it? If I engage that means camp has 3~4 mobs waiting to kill and I only run away after 1~3 died.

[pancakesandsex]

Looking for optimal pup master tp sets, and sets for each frame. Not sure where to look. Suggestions? Don't have access to salvage gear, but I have full thaumas and manibohzo access.

[The Stig]

I don't mean to sound rude, but you've been playing for how long? And you didn't know you can macro in stuyff before and during spells..?

That long (pause@Q1 2010 resume Q1 2013), sorry but I really didn't know :/ -- Just the macro items before was what I was accustomed to.

[noodles355]

I think there has been some misunderstanding here Vlar. We are obviously talking about two different events. When you said Plasm farming run I assumed you meant pickup plasm runs. In 90% of pugs you're going to have to use hunters roll otherwise the other shitty DDs won't hit shit and will complain. That's where the accuracy misunderstanding is obviously coming from.

As far as your TP set, it's far from optimal opviously. For one thing: If you are uncapped Accuracy, why are you using Dusk Gloves +1 instead of Brego, and why are you using Suppa/Brutal instead of Dudgeon/Heartseeker? That's another 17 accuracy right there. Also if low on accuracy you would be better with Chocaliztli Mask and Anguinus belt over Thurandaut and Twilight. That's another 20 accuracy.

As much as I talk about shitty pickup groups, I have yet to be in one where the brd doesn't horde things at camp and light shot is rarely used. So you're using QD for damage every 40 seconds.

Finally, you said it yourself: you only engage when there's a surplus. I'd still take the increased QD damage over slightly better DPS considering how rarely you'll be engaged.

And if I was fulltime engaged then I'd still take /war for Berserk DA Fencer.

[Darkmagi]

I don't know about you, but I build my pickup plasm runs with 90% solid players. I avoid scrubs that don't have moderately good gear or understanding of the game. Realistically melee or not, your cor is hardly going to be contributing besides your roll bonuses. If you had the opportunity to be meleeing fulltime, cor/dnc seems undoubtedly better. Box step/quick step on every mob and slightly increased attack speed on some jobs seems like a good enough boon to justify any minor DPS loss if there actually was some.

[Viar]

I think there has been some misunderstanding here Vlar. We are obviously talking about two different events. When you said Plasm farming run I assumed you meant pickup plasm runs. In 90% of pugs you're going to have to use hunters roll otherwise the other shitty DDs won't hit shit and will complain. That's where the accuracy misunderstanding is obviously coming from.

As far as your TP set, it's far from optimal opviously. For one thing: If you are uncapped Accuracy, why are you using Dusk Gloves +1 instead of Brego, and why are you using Suppa/Brutal instead of Dudgeon/Heartseeker? That's another 17 accuracy right there. Also if low on accuracy you would be better with Chocaliztli Mask and Anguinus belt over Thurandaut and Twilight. That's another 20 accuracy.

As much as I talk about shitty pickup groups, I have yet to be in one where the brd doesn't horde things at camp and light shot is rarely used. So you're using QD for damage every 40 seconds.

Finally, you said it yourself: you only engage when there's a surplus. I'd still take the increased QD damage over slightly better DPS considering how rarely you'll be engaged.

And if I was fulltime engaged then I'd still take /war for Berserk DA Fencer.

I've been to a couple of pt with DD able to cap accuracy (parsed around 94%, which may be capped just gear swap lag bringing it down) without hunter. I agree that many DDs still need hunter though.

COR can't use Brego, dusk+1 can augment with acc if I remember correctly.

It's possible to cap without hunter with above mentioned setup, if you have high rank augment(or path B augment) and DEX merit. Since it's only a bit below cap. But missing accuracy bonus makes it much harder to cap.

I checked spreadsheet again for full time engage, not counting haste samba for other pt member, /WAR only wins when aggressor/berserk up if your acc isn't capped. Once it's down /DNC pulls ahead.

If you can cap accuracy, then /DNC always wins. If you add haste samba bonus for everyone else, /DNC is undeniably better. I did not check extra attack for physical WS because I almost always use wildfire(or exen if I have attack songs), you may get different result if you want to toss gil for last stand, which isn't worth the cost for plasm farm IMO.

Edit: Just realized there's another TP set for single wield /WAR, let me recheck ><

[Teknique]

steelflash/bladeborn or brutal/supa for ninja? wearing af3 +2 head, relic +2 pants for enhances duelwield ( and of course supa) for my current tp set, this question is generally directed towards abby mobs.

[dasva]

brutal/supa unless capping -delay which if I'm reading your setup right should be 59% total haste.

[Viar]

Edit: Just realized there's another TP set for single wield /WAR, let me recheck ><

Doesn't work, /DNC still pulled ahead of /WAR. Lack of DW+haste samba (and you won't have anyone else in pt to samba too), and berserk/aggressor has downtime made this SJ inferior on delve fodder farm. Fencer is only useful if you're using last stand.

[dasva]

Haste samba doesn't add alot when you aren't constantly hitting mobs (pulling running towards slept mobs don't have tp rolling) and not getting too much in the way of extra haste and still costs significant amount of tp

[Viar]

I was replying for /WAR v.s /DNC for full time engage though. Even without haste samba /DNC still do more than /WAR when aggressor/berserk down, and it's down nearly half the time too. I think berserk/aggressor are also dispel-able by eft? At least haste samba you can reapply.

And you must pull A LOT if you can't get benefit from extra TP dmg. If I'm going to join a PUG pt, I won't know whether I'd be pulling A LOT or not, since it really depend on DD kill speed, setup and camp position. In that way /DNC is a safe choice because you may ended up needing more dmg than you think(sometimes PUG DD pt still have trouble clearing 1st room repops)

There's only 2 pt I've joined that I need to pull that much, every other pt I still engage more than I need to pull. If I'm pulling I tend to save QD charge for light shot anyways, so MAB2 does nothing until I regained enough for wildfire.