What's Better?

[dasva]

You're really stretching the scenario to make it benefit the subjob you are using the most... you don't have to pull alot for it to not benefit. It costs 35 tp. Hell if you were really concerned about tping faster you'd /nin for 10% more dual wield lol. And as far as reapplying if it gets dispelled... well it's recast is 1 min and duration is only 1.5 so short window of dispels.

Do you have anything to back up /dnc does more than /war or /rdm or /nin for that matter.

As far as light shotting... again you are basically making the situation not benefit /rdm as much.

[chichicha]

The sad thing is, pup also kinda sucks on fodder mobs due to all the time you waste deploying and not swinging.

They should really give pup some kind of stance/attachment/whatever that makes autos auto-engage like wyverns.

Not trying to say PUP is best of w/e.

What I see from PUP, deploying is like 1 s delayed you to engage the mob.
With the 1s faster other DD engage, does it really make much different?
Usually, comparing my TP gain to DDs. I'm like spamming 3 WS while they do 2. Not to mentioned, pet is melee/ranged attack and WS with constant dmg. (In delve plasm farm, even with evasion boost, I see pt missed except the pet still hitting).

For Plasm Farm, PUP with Alternator can basically tank NM (as PLD pet) and/ or SMN pull NM to twilight Sac, if NMs are splitting far apart.

My point here... If you get a veteran PUP into your plasm farm run, there are benefits and or convenience

p.s.
All I'm saying, yea! alternator is game breaking lolz
Enjoy before SE ninja fixed!

[Taim Meich]

Alternator is hardly game breaking. It brings PUP up to pace with the other DDs, along with Rigor, but PUP will still perform worse tha good 2H DDs in proper plasm farm runs with correct buffs (marches, chaos roll). The PUP will still be competitive instead of being a dead weight, and that's, at least for now, enough for me.

[noodles355]

/WAR only wins when aggressor/berserk up if your acc isn't capped.

I did not check extra attack for physical WS because I almost always use wildfire(or exen if I have attack songs)

Now try comparing /war again when using Last Stand with Delve Gun like you probably should.

[Viar]

You're really stretching the scenario to make it benefit the subjob you are using the most... you don't have to pull alot for it to not benefit. It costs 35 tp. Hell if you were really concerned about tping faster you'd /nin for 10% more dual wield lol. And as far as reapplying if it gets dispelled... well it's recast is 1 min and duration is only 1.5 so short window of dispels.

I'm not "stretching the scenario", it's really just my personal experience. I did use light shot sometimes, it's not like I intentionally not to use dmg shot to benefit /DNC. I've tried /NIN, which is also a SJ that can pull+DD. But I don't like it due to the lack of acc bonus. I parsed around 93% acc if I'm not using hunters, if I change to /NIN it's going to drop below 90%. Unless you're suggesting dropping haste samba and sacrifice more TP dmg to make up the acc bonus.

I guess it's a good alternative depending on your DD jobs, maybe.

Now try comparing /war again when using Last Stand with Delve Gun like you probably should.

New bullet costs 250k~300k a synth, and I don't find it logical to toss gil in an event intended to farm gil(ok, maybe you don't do it to make gil, but many ppl do). It's not like spamming last stand are going to increase your point gain by 30% or something. Most mobs died too fast and quite a lot of WS dmg going to be wasted when you WS at 10%. If berserk is dispelled then last stand is utter waste of gil....remember you're eating sushi and attack are hard to come by. I think it's only worth it if your BRD has 4 songs and singing 2 more attack song.

If you believe /WAR epeen last stand is superior, and you're willing to toss gil, then by all means go for it. Original post started this discussion did mentioned he used WF but not last stand.

[Kohan]

I'm not "stretching the scenario", it's really just my personal experience.

If you can't substantiate your "personal experience," no one cares, nor should they.

Of course, I would not expect someone spicing up their response with a desperately defensive "epeen" dig to provide anything convincing.

[Viar]

If you can't substantiate your "personal experience," no one cares, nor should they.

Of course, I would not expect someone spicing up their response with a desperately defensive "epeen" dig to provide anything convincing.

95% of party setup or strategy shared on BG are all about "personal experience" and nothing more, since every party in event aren't that different. I'm not the only one been saving QD charges for emergency sleeps. Dasva sounds like every COR on the planet burned their QD charges on damage and only me been saving light shot for sleep because I want /DNC to be the best.

You find best or most effective setup by sharing experience isn't it? What else to you expect regarding the usage of QD?

[Kohan]

95% of party setup or strategy shared on BG are all about "personal experience" and nothing more

This is a disingenuous statement. Saying something as vague as "personal experience" devalues substantiated information that's mathematically proven. It's equivalent to saying that belief is as good as solid proof. It is not. A lot of the most respected theorycrafters on BG have a deep understanding of the game's mechanisms and how to test them, which can all be traced back to the fact that the game we are playing is a piece of software, and it is designed to work in a very specific way that no amount of belief can violate. If you cannot do that, and people who are capable of doing so have already disproven you in the past, nothing save a fundamental reworking of the mechanics involved can possibly lead to the results you want.

So, no.

[Viar]

This is a disingenuous statement. Saying something as vague as "personal experience" devalues substantiated information that's mathematically proven. It's equivalent to saying that belief is as good as solid proof. It is not. A lot of the most respected theorycrafters on BG have a deep understanding of the game's mechanisms and how to test them, which can all be traced back to the fact that the game we are playing is a piece of software, and it is designed to work in a very specific way that no amount of belief can violate. If you cannot do that, and people who are capable of doing so have already disproven you in the past, nothing save a fundamental reworking of the mechanics involved can possibly lead to the results you want.

So, no.

The problem is that those who claimed /RDM and /WAR being superior had 0 math proof to prove those SJ are superior either, their conclusions are also based on guessing. In fact they even suggested a gear unusable by COR and subpar offhand released at 95 cap, when better and easier to obtain alternative exists. No offense, but that gave me an impression that those supporting /RDM and /WAR didn't spend enough time on researching appropriate sets and not very convincing.

At least I provided spreadsheet and parse result regarding acc issue and melee DPS. If someone can convince me that /RDM and /WAR being superior(such as providing last stand avg in a parse, or QD damage % in a parse), or come up with a TP set that works better/ realistically obtainable, then I'd change my SJ. Until then I use what I have that gives best result.


Edit: Oh by the way, I actually respect noodles355 and Dasva's contribution on BG a lot. But I don't judge an opinion based on who they are and their past contribution. Someone with 6k post on BG may not convince me without good support, someone with 1 post on BG may convince me if his argument makes sense.

I can try to get parse result next couple run on COR again and math out the TP/WS/QD % increase/decrease on /RDM v.s /DNC, until then no point to continue if nobody can prove anything.

[Kohan]

The problem is that those who claimed /RDM and /WAR being superior had 0 math proof to prove those SJ are superior either, their conclusions are also based on guessing. In fact they even suggested a gear unusable by COR and subpar offhand released at 95 cap, when better and easier to obtain alternative exists. No offense, but that gave me an impression that those supporting /RDM and /WAR didn't spend enough time on researching appropriate sets and not very convincing.

[...]

Oh by the way, I actually respect noodles355 and Dasva's contribution on BG a lot. But I don't judge an opinion based on who they are and their past contribution. Someone with 6k post on BG may not convince me without good support, someone with 1 post on BG may convince me if his argument makes sense.

This is sensible, but the problem is that you've made absolute statements.

Doesn't work, /DNC still pulled ahead of /WAR. Lack of DW+haste samba (and you won't have anyone else in pt to samba too), and berserk/aggressor has downtime made this SJ inferior on delve fodder farm. Fencer is only useful if you're using last stand.

If you can cap accuracy, then /DNC always wins. If you add haste samba bonus for everyone else, /DNC is undeniably better.

As such, this train of thought goes both ways. You were asked to substantiate your information, and you did not.

I can try to get parse result next couple run on COR again and math out the TP/WS/QD % increase/decrease on /RDM v.s /DNC, until then no point to continue if nobody can prove anything.

This is a better thing to say.

[Fake]

This is all a completely pointless discussion unless you limit yourselves to specific buffs and decide what your overall priority is (since /war is going to sacrifice pulling ability). A parse isn't going to help unless you're going with the same people on the same jobs in the same party fighting the same mobs with the same debuffs.

In a DD only run where you have a lot of buffs/debuffs (4 song brd, geo, drgs etc) /war with last stand is going to win. For anything else pick your preference because there are arguements for both /rdm and /dnc and not everything is quantifiable (how important is your role in pulling multiple mobs for example, or how attentive is your whm/brds when you come running into camp with 4 mobs hitting you)

[Viar]

This is sensible, but the problem is that you've made absolute statements.





As such, this train of thought goes both ways. You were asked to substantiate your information, and you did not.

This statement is based on spreadsheet number, I didn't just pull it out of nowhere. If someone want to argue against it, they should pull out their own parse/spreadsheet number to counter it.

In a DD only run where you have a lot of buffs/debuffs (4 song brd, geo, drgs etc) /war with last stand is going to win. For anything else pick your preference because there are arguements for both /rdm and /dnc and not everything is quantifiable (how important is your role in pulling multiple mobs for example, or how attentive is your whm/brds when you come running into camp with 4 mobs hitting you)

My argument against /WAR last stand build has been cost/result ratio and lack of 4 songs BRD+ mob dispel spam in PUG plasm fodder farm to begin with, not because /WAR can't have highest output in perfect scenario. Original post that started the discussion was using WF, which doesn't get much benefit from /WAR so I suggested him to use /DNC instead.

[noodles355]

Original post started this discussion did mentioned he used WF but not last stand.

I hope you're not referring to my post.

[Malithar]

For anything else pick your preference because there are arguements for both /rdm and /dnc and not everything is quantifiable (how important is your role in pulling multiple mobs for example, or how attentive is your whm/brds when you come running into camp with 4 mobs hitting you)

This is a big part of the argument IMO. While the general format of the ally has become a standard (2x parties of 3x DD Brd Cor Whm or Sch - 2x Pld 2x Thf 2x Whm or Sch) groups differ on their strategy. My LS's runs typically call for the Thf and Brd to be the pullers, while the Cor stays at the camp helping DD things down. With this in mind, our's typically do come /Dnc, not at our request, but because they argued that /Rdm was just throwing ammo away for subpar accuracy unless going overboard with buffs/gear, and their belief of Haste Samba, Box Step, and emergency cures if something goes wrong (Sch converted within range of a Wivre's battlehorn last night, pulls slowed, kills slowed, but having additional cures available did help). Can't really comment on /War, just pointing out what our Cor's have commented on being the best for them in order to further support the group. As one of the DDs in the group, its nice knowing that your roles won't fall off cause the Cor forgot to reapply them and ran off down a tunnel to leave us without them for up to a couple min if the pull is long. Samba is just icing on the cake considering you're riding Hasso, Haste, 2x Ghorn Marches.

Maybe our Thfs just sucked, but they were parsing much lower then what our Cors were. Typically its a breakdown of the 3 DDs being between 20-30% each with the Cor hovering around 10-15%. Thf just pulls in evasion gear now and tags occasional mobs for TH. It does provide lackluster lixir drops at times, but as long as there's enough for everyone to get 1, most don't care.

[Viar]

I hope you're not referring to my post.

I recently took back up my COR/WAR to delve and am having a blast TPing and then using QD + WF. While my WFs are a very consistent 1900+

No he asked whether he should change to last stand then I argue against it due to several above mentioned reasons.

[Viar]

Maybe our Thfs just sucked, but they were parsing much lower then what our Cors were. Typically its a breakdown of the 3 DDs being between 20-30% each with the Cor hovering around 10-15%. Thf just pulls in evasion gear now and tags occasional mobs for TH. It does provide lackluster lixir drops at times, but as long as there's enough for everyone to get 1, most don't care.

It's not that your THF sucked, just that THF sitting in PLD pt with no buff shouldn't beat COR getting COR+BRD buffs, most THFs don't /WAR in fracture run either. I'm not familiar with THF weapon selections and whether they can DW 2 delve weapon or not, but if your THF only has 1 delve weapon and no delve boss dagger, then COR also gets advantage of getting access to 2 delve weapons.


Edit: THF can use the sword too, but their sword skill is much lower than COR's.

[noodles355]

No he asked whether he should change to last stand then I argue against it due to several above mentioned reasons.

You argue against it because it's more expensive. To each their own.

[fantasticdan]

Not trying to say PUP is best of w/e.

What I see from PUP, deploying is like 1 s delayed you to engage the mob.
With the 1s faster other DD engage, does it really make much different?
Usually, comparing my TP gain to DDs. I'm like spamming 3 WS while they do 2.

It's like 2 seconds, and considering fodder mobs are only going to live like 5-10 seconds after they've been engaged, it's a big deal. If you're gaining TP 50% faster than jobs that have an advantage over you both in engage time, and store tp, that says a lot about how much the DDs you group with are half-assing it.

[Viar]

You argue against it because it's more expensive. To each their own.

I argue against it for reasons that's more than being expensive. It's also related to your TP set and acc issue, BRD and DDs you pt with, your luck with mob dispel, and your mage capabilities. Bullets are expensive is not just because it's expensive, but also because it's hard to make all that gil toss worth the cost without a very specific setup.

Original post and you did not propose a specific scenario with pt setup/gear set, so I suggested a SJ that doesn't need specific scenario to shine.

If original post said "I have full STR/DEX merit, full augment on my delve dagger, my single wield TP set looks like this and I parsed 95% acc with this set. My pt setup is SAM/WAR x3 and my BRD has ghorn 99+ Daurdabla 99, my buffs are chaos/fighter/marchx2/minuet, my mage has no problem dia 2 every mob and erase/-na/cure everyone really fast. There's also a BLU and DRG in PLD pt spamming def down spell on every mob. I have full augment delve gun and I have no problem tossing gil on Midrium bullet, in fact I really want to toss gil for epeen damage! Oh and by the way, we don't fight efts so my berserk is mostly on!"

Then yes, I'd agree /DNC offers limited advantage in such scenario and /WAR is best sub. But he didn't, and the chance of having such setup, on top of having that much gil to toss(and feeling like tossing them) is very rare. So I suggested a most versatile and easiest to use SJ that's hard to go wrong when it comes to TP damage/accuracy and support.

If you supported /RDM because your mages don't haste and you don't use light shot for pulling+almost never engage, which is also a very specific scenario, why can't I suggest a SJ that works better in more situations? Suggesting /WAR and /RDM is also "stretching the scenario to make it benefit the subjob", probably more so than suggesting /DNC.

I don't just reply to original post, but also anyone looking for ideal plasm farm setup for COR. Even if above mentioned /WAR setup works for OP and you, it certainly doesn't work on 95% of COR. 90% of CORs I pt with use bronze bullet with a staff and don't care about their output that much, do you really expect them build a single wield TP set with capped accuracy when aggressor down and no hunter's roll, toss midrium bullet, and pt with pimp BRD+ capping attack delay DDs? That's just not very practical.

[Motenten]

I really should get a proper cor spreadsheet done, huh?