What's Better?

[Atoreis]

Spoiler: show

I know the question was just asked, but I was looking for more specifications on Gungnir (95, don't see myself getting marrows quickly) v. OAT v. Herja's Fork, and why each would be better, as in their pros/cons on WS frequency, WS damage, and TP DoT (including jumps if possible). Saw something on FFXIAH about it but I figured I'd ask here because I figure the better mathers are here. Here are the sets I'd be looking for on each build, slightly conjecture as I'm missing Ganesha's Mala, etc:

Herja's Fork
Herja's Fork/Pole Grip/Empty/Thew Bomblet
Lancer+2/Ganesha/Gillie+1/Brutal
Lancer+2/Dusk+1/Rajas/Tyrant's
Atheling/Goading/Phorcys/Lancer+2

Delay is 492 on Herja's, so that's 13.36 TP/hit. That requires me to get +50 STP in order to hit 5/hit, and this setup gives me +36 STP, along with +15 from /SAM so puts me slightly over 5-hit.


Gungnir (95)
Gungnir/Pole Grip/Empty/Hagneia Stone
Lancer+2/Houyi's Gorget/Gillie+1/Brutal
Lancer+2/Dusk+1/Rajas/Tyrant's
Atheling/Goading/Phorcys/Lancer+2

Delay is 492 on Gungnir, so that's 13.36 TP/hit. That requires me to get +50 STP in order to hit 5/hit, and this setup gives me +37 STP, along with +15 from /SAM so puts me slightly over 5-hit.


Chauve-Souris (Current)
OAT (99)/Pole Grip/Empty/Thew Bomblet
Lancer's+2/Ganesha/Gillie+1/Brutal
Lancer's+2/Dusk+1/Rajas/Tyrant
Atheling/Goading/Phorcys/Lancer's+2

Delay on OAT is 507, which is 13.81 TP/hit so you need 45 STP in order to hit a 5-hit build. My set above gives +31 STP, which along with the +15 from /SAM puts me at 46 STP, just over what is required.


From my eyeballing I'd say that Herja's is best for melee DoT, but I'm not sure how the 6 DMG difference between Gungnir and Herja's would affect the overall damage output. This also doesn't account for jumps, as the multi-hit jumps not only build a ton of TP but do a fair amount of damage as well. WS frequency, OAT lance would win hands-down, I'd imagine.

So yeah, that's just my thoughts on the matter and my current setup considerations, and I'm wondering if I should be going for Herja's Fork or stick with my OAT lance/Gungnir that I'm making. Thanks for your time.

Cahnging OAT to Herja is:

7-8% less WS frequency
10% higher white damage
15% higher ws damage

10-11% less TP from jumps
15% higher jump damage

Those numbers are a little off because used pole grip and I should rose strap
set is:

Herja/rose/x/hagneia
phorcys/ganesha/Gillie+1/brutal
Enif/lancer/rajas/tyrant
atheling/goading/phorcys/lancer


Not really sure how you want to 5hit that Gungnir with 1.52sTP
Thats 80.8 with 4 hits. Usual WS set has 21sTP so 16TP. You need 3.2 more so I guess you assuming 4hit Stardiver every time?

[noodles355]

Is jump damage really 15% higher? That's the same increase you have for WS damage. OAT can't proc for double damage on WS, but can on jumps so surely the damage increase would be less than 15%?

[Atoreis]

Is jump damage really 15% higher? That's the same increase you have for WS damage. OAT can't proc for double damage on WS, but can on jumps so surely the damage increase would be less than 15%?

For WS dmg I assumed something around 200STR (and 20fSTR)

So 110(weapon)+20(fSTR)+170(WSC).
Herja is 30 base damage more so thats 10%
3%QA is around 4%
10attack is around 1%
Total around 15%

Jump (I will just ctrl+v what I wrote at ffxiah. Note that it would be 2% DA less for Herje because I should have used rose strap not pole grip)

"I made some quick jump set and its around 22%DA 2%TA and 5%QA (with new body)

That gives around
1.63 avg for chauve
1.47 avg for Herja

Thats around 10-11% INCREASE in hits per jump for Chauve

Damage:
179-212 (various with fSTR) for Chauve ( thats base ofc ) <----- Thats base damage + fSTR multiplied by avg hit per jump
207-236 for Herja

Thats 11-15,5% INCREASE for jump damage with Herje

So 11-15% stronger jumps with 10% less TP. I would say Herje wins again imo."

EDIT: Also the answer for your question is that for WS Stardiver has very high WSC which decrease bonus you get with higher base damage on weapon but OAT cant proc on WS. For jumps you have no WSC so base damage increase gives more but OAT can proc. I think you can see what I mean.

[noodles355]

Makes sense, cheers for that.

[BerenTebogo]

How did AGI+11 become better than Kamome for offhand and how did AGI+6 become better than Qirmiz for ranged? Serious questions. First night back in almost a year. Also, Brigo Cuffs(?) best TP piece now?

Can anyone post some sets? I'm curious how shit has changed. Still level 90, lol.

[Langly]

How did AGI+11 become better than Kamome for offhand and how did AGI+6 become better than Qirmiz for ranged? Serious questions. First night back in almost a year. Also, Brigo Cuffs(?) best TP piece now?

Can anyone post some sets? I'm curious how shit has changed. Still level 90, lol.

They aren't better? I would assume you're seeing someone who wants to sacrifice some DD for some evasion?

The STR Magian katana for offhand is your goto on things outside of abyssea. And it's my understanding a DEX magian also has it's place if you're lacking enough acc.

Stick with your kamome and qirmiz for now. No worries.

[BerenTebogo]

They aren't better? I would assume you're seeing someone who wants to sacrifice some DD for some evasion?

The STR Magian katana for offhand is your goto on things outside of abyssea. And it's my understanding a DEX magian also has it's place if you're lacking enough acc.

Stick with your kamome and qirmiz for now. No worries.

I was actually seeing a lot of people with it which made my head spin. Didn't think they changed the mechanics that much! That's good to know at least.

Just dicking around browsing new items. Koga +2 feet now best WS piece overall?

[Gun-it]

I was actually seeing a lot of people with it which made my head spin. Didn't think they changed the mechanics that much! That's good to know at least.

Just dicking around browsing new items. Koga +2 feet now best WS piece overall?

Thaumas feet beat Koga+2 for Hi/Shun.

[BerenTebogo]

Can anyone post some new TP / WS sets if you don't mind? I've still got the 26% haste, yadda yadda, so I'm not lacking. But all the new items are a lot to just swamp through and compare piece by piece, lol.

[Gun-it]

http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/210253 TP With Marchs change to Usu feet and Thaumas legs. with Embrava change to Thaumas legs/feet plus haste change to Windbuffet.

http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/210349 WS outside abysea, Inside change to Thaumas legs, Loki's, Agi ring. This set is not ideal atm.

[ssjjfar]

Whirlwind dirs in comparison to other THF WS legs?

[pancakesandsex]

Whirlwind dirs in comparison to other THF WS legs?

Not favorable. You're better off with tumblers, raiders +2, or hecatomb +1

[Gun-it]

Whirlwind dirs in comparison to other THF WS legs?

Good for MS unstacked iirc.

[noodles355]

How do they compare to Heca+1 for stacked MS? (I assume Thaumas beats both, but my static disbanded -.-)

[pancakesandsex]

Good for MS unstacked iirc.

Forgot that was str mod. I'm only thinking dex based ws.

[Khajit]

Good for MS unstacked iirc.

If you're using mercy stroke unstacked it means your macro screwed up or you're doing trials without a person to be trick attack bitch.

[noodles355]

If you're using mercy stroke unstacked it means your macro screwed up or you're doing trials without a person to be trick attack bitch.

Is it that much worse than Exenterator unstacked?
5.0ftp 100% AGI
4.0ftp 60% STR, 25% WS Dmg boost, 5% crit aftermath.

[Byrthnoth]

Yeah, it is. It's also 3 FTP, and the 99 version is +40% Mercy Stroke damage. Stat modifier matters a lot for dagger WSs because of how low their starting base damage is.

[noodles355]

3.0 + 1.0 offhand = 4.0?

At 99, is the difference between 1.0ftp and 100AGI over 60STR more than a 40% increase?

Edit:
With Mandau(99)/Str Thokcha, swapping Thaumas pieces in over my current sets where applicable,
For exenterator I would have: 178AGI 153STR 660Attack. 247 Base Damage @ 660 Attack
For Mercy Stroke 192STR, 702Attack. 184 Base Damage, 702 Attack

Fair enough, I didn't realise the base damage difference was so high. But still, 40% increase is a lot, wouldn't that make them at least comparable? You're looking at 1ftp and about 60DMG difference against 60~ Attack and 40% WSDamage, plus the 5% crit rate to melee DoT that would be up almost all the time.

[Byrthnoth]

4*1.4 = 5.6 (a little more due to DA/TA)
5.6/5 = 1.12, so the extra 40% mod only has to add a little more than 12% damage to make the WSs equal.

60% STR with an ideal Mercy Stroke set is behind 100% AGI with an ideal Exenterator set. fSTR is likely capped in both cases thanks to Thaumas and THF's low fTP cap.

MS: 89+12+72 STR = 87 base damage :: 14+55+87 = 156 :: 156*5.6 = 873.6
Exe: 91+72 AGI = 138 base damage :: 14+55+87 = 207 :: 207*5 = 1035

So Exenterator will do more damage. Whether a 5% crit rate boost makes up for it, I don't know. I suspect it doesn't, though.