What's Better?

[Nightfyre]

Are you checking against different monsters? Don't neglect the fact that dDEX bonuses are primarily concentrated in a small range.

Granted if Anwig behaves like the other WSDMG pieces then it would be a pretty weak option for a 6-hit WS, accuracy concerns aside. The TA and 1-2% crit might well do it considering SP's low WSC percentages.

[Taim Meich]

Are you checking against different monsters? Don't neglect the fact that dDEX bonuses are primarily concentrated in a small range.

Granted if Anwig behaves like the other WSDMG pieces then it would be a pretty weak option for a 6-hit WS, accuracy concerns aside. The TA and 1-2% crit might well do it considering SP's low WSC percentages.

It's very possible that against high AGI enemies it won't perform as well, but as I commented, PUP is, unless things change too much, not an optimal option to bring to fight an HNM. And I really really wished this would not be the case, but I prefer being realistic to delusional. Right now, certain jobs, like DNC, BST, PUP and THF are only good (and thankfully, better than the rest) at doing Dyna and other content with several, not ultra-tough targets. At least they have a niche, unlike RDM.

In any case, I'll try to optimize PUP on something like Qilin without Stalwart and without the base stats increase from Bravers etc to see what's better. I guess that would give an idea of the performance against Legion NMs? I really don't know if they are comparable.

[Nightfyre]

It's very possible that against high AGI enemies it won't perform as well, but as I commented, PUP is, unless things change too much, not an optimal option to bring to fight an HNM. And I really really wished this would not be the case, but I prefer being realistic to delusional. Right now, certain jobs, like DNC, BST, PUP and THF are only good (and thankfully, better than the rest) at doing Dyna and other content with several, not ultra-tough targets. At least they have a niche, unlike RDM.

In any case, I'll try to optimize PUP on something like Qilin without Stalwart and without the base stats increase from Bravers etc to see what's better. I guess that would give an idea of the performance against Legion NMs? I really don't know if they are comparable.

Not really what I was trying to say. Different monsters, even if the same level, may have significantly different AGI values. I have no idea what your DEX is at on PUP with or without Oce +1 so I can't say if you're even in a good general area for fodder or what.

Just something to keep in mind. As I said before, Anwig isn't even all that great an option for SP anyway if the WSDMG is first hit only, which suggests that you may actually not be getting much critrate out of Oce +1. If that's the case, I'd start looking at options like Athos head (particularly if using the hands) or Mustela head to compare it with instead.

[CoreyX]

I've never had any accuracy problems on PUP, even on Lancing Lamorak or whatever, my stringing pummels were doing pretty consistent damage and I ended up tanking the entire time because other DDs were whiffing. PUP has very high base DEX and its optimal TP gear has a ton of DEX and accuracy too, so that tends to help with being capped for critical hits and accuracy. I use Anwig Salade with ACC+25 STR+4 Attack+5. PUP WS gear tends to have a lot of DEX too so it's not hard to cap dDEX there, either

[diasetsu]

Anwig definitely is first hit only just like the rest of WSD+ as it is what I used for my Last Stand test. I know Khepri Bonnet may be a hard piece to acquire, but wouldn't Thaumas Hat be a decent choice? I figure at least for equip that is mnk and pup accessible if something is good for smite/fury, it's probably good for pummel.

[Taim Meich]

Not really what I was trying to say. Different monsters, even if the same level, may have significantly different AGI values. I have no idea what your DEX is at on PUP with or without Oce +1 so I can't say if you're even in a good general area for fodder or what.

Just something to keep in mind. As I said before, Anwig isn't even all that great an option for SP anyway if the WSDMG is first hit only, which suggests that you may actually not be getting much critrate out of Oce +1. If that's the case, I'd start looking at options like Athos head (particularly if using the hands) or Mustela head to compare it with instead.

Ah, now I understand you, sorry. Dex with Ocelomeh head is around 150 (depending on sub, and without Dex merits). I don't know what's the variance in the AGI of monsters, the spreadsheet has Dynamis DC listed as 95, so the head pushes the crit rate from 12% to capped at 20%. If there is a significant amount of mobs with AGI in the 110+ range, Ocelomeh head won't be contributing as much, but there's still the 3% TA it provides due to the set with Toci's. Other heads, even Athos with its significant 8 STR, and even considering a 3% crit increase if it's the second Athos piece, can't touch Ocelomeh +1 (at least in the tries I've made).

[Sechs]

Anwig definitely is first hit only just like the rest of WSD+ as it is what I used for my Last Stand test. I know Khepri Bonnet may be a hard piece to acquire, but wouldn't Thaumas Hat be a decent choice? I figure at least for equip that is mnk and pup accessible if something is good for smite/fury, it's probably good for pummel.

PUP cannot equip Khepri, would have been a good option but probably not THAT far ahead of others.
Thaumas Head is probably the BiS atm, especially if you pair it with other pieces of the set (legs?)
Athos head + athos hands are another really good option imho. Dunno about Athos legs because... well, u'd get additional 1% crit and the Crit damage, plus +5 dex, But I dunno if it would be worth over other options (Thaumas legs?) probably better than Usukane Legs.
Another good option that's really fast to obtain since you can AH it (if you have the gil) is Mustela Head + Mustela Gloves imho.
Dunno if the set bonus could make it worth to equip other pieces like Body, Legs and Feet. While not bad, they look inferior to other options per se, and I doubt set bonus alone could compensate.

I don't remember what I put in head+body slot for VS and SP on PUP, I think I use Toci's + Ocelo+1 for both. And silly Usukane Legs + Cirque+2 hands =/
I think before Voidwatch came I used to WS in Cirque+2body/Anwig for SP and Usukanebody/anwig for VS.

[pchan]

Mdkuser tested the mustela set bonus to be zero with 2 pieces equipped, more proof of why legion is fail btw, so that won't work. The ideal set for SP will be highly dependant on the mob's agi and def. Also monk have like 100+ attack than pups, which means than attack gear will often be superior to dexcrit and critical damage gear. I realized this when trying to compare a basic vere 99 monk vs a mythic pup, and mythic pup was way too far due to attack. Personnally I'd go with a basic +50 dex then fill it with attack.

[diasetsu]

I am pretty sure that Byrth found Stringing Pummel to have an attack boost. If so, Pup should be on par, and probably higher than a victory smite monk. I don't know if he ever got concrete numbers for it's boost though. Also I can't find any info about it on JP sites, so who knows. If pummel does in fact get a decent boost to att though, you probably can wear less attack gear than you would for smite, and gear more towards stat mods/crit.

[Darkmagi]

I'd really love to see a comparison between a top end MNK/99kenkonken pup with capped attack.

[Toth]

I'd really love to see a comparison between a top end MNK/99kenkonken pup with capped attack.

As do I. I have consistently done some great SPs in regards to a MNK's VS but I understand that Impetus > automaton in most endgame events due to temp items and buffs not working on the pets. And a relic MNK should always be top DD regardless so I understand my limits. I just think PUP gets a bum rap too much when the job is actually one hell of a good, versatile DD.

[Taim Meich]

As do I. I have consistently done some great SPs in regards to a MNK's VS but I understand that Impetus > automaton in most endgame events due to temp items and buffs not working on the pets. And a relic MNK should always be top DD regardless so I understand my limits. I just think PUP gets a bum rap too much when the job is actually one hell of a good, versatile DD.

Just like most problems with pet jobs in this game, that would be solved if SE wanted to make buffs affect pets. That way pet jobs would get the same % increase in performance when buffed that the other jobs get. But, noooo, we can't have this, balance and such.

[Toth]

Mdkuser tested the mustela set bonus to be zero with 2 pieces equipped, more proof of why legion is fail btw, so that won't work. The ideal set for SP will be highly dependant on the mob's agi and def. Also monk have like 100+ attack than pups, which means than attack gear will often be superior to dexcrit and critical damage gear. I realized this when trying to compare a basic vere 99 monk vs a mythic pup, and mythic pup was way too far due to attack. Personnally I'd go with a basic +50 dex then fill it with attack.

Well for comparison, with the setup I described on the last page:

99 PUP/WAR
STR 93 +65
DEX 92 +53
Attack (base): 542
Attack (Berserk'd): 677

I do have 9 more stat merits left and I am currently 7 STR, 1 DEX, 7 INT. I suppose I should dump 6-9 more in DEX? Also, should I focus on attack food or stick to sushi...?

[SargentRemora]

For one handed melee (specifically DNC), Rajas or Ambuscade Ring for TP?
Using the set here.

[Taim Meich]

Well for comparison, with the setup I described on the last page:

99 PUP/WAR
STR 93 +65
DEX 92 +53
Attack (base): 542
Attack (Berserk'd): 677

I do have 9 more stat merits left and I am currently 7 STR, 1 DEX, 7 INT. I suppose I should dump 6-9 more in DEX? Also, should I focus on attack food or stick to sushi...?

Regarding food, consider this: You're not capping attack on stuff as low level as a Dynamis DC mob unless you eat RCB, sub WAR and use Berserk. So, every time your acc is capped (and that's against basically everything not a high-end VW NM or a Legion NM) you are better with attack food. Against the mobs that sushi is overkill on acc, use pizza, and in the worst cases, acc-wise, sushi, of course.

[pchan]

Well for comparison, with the setup I described on the last page:

99 PUP/WAR
STR 93 +65
DEX 92 +53
Attack (base): 542
Attack (Berserk'd): 677

I do have 9 more stat merits left and I am currently 7 STR, 1 DEX, 7 INT. I suppose I should dump 6-9 more in DEX? Also, should I focus on attack food or stick to sushi...?

Monk is sitting at 630 with vere 650 with relic before berserk, now attack is not the only advantage they have (kick attacks and motenten's spreadsheet makes a mythic pup without any AM3 pretty ridiculous vs monk too, so there are other factors that I can't think of).

[Taim Meich]

What's your ideal MNK TP set, pchan? with and without Impetus. I'd like to do the comparisons in the spreadsheet myself, but I'm no monk to decide the equipment without too much research.

[pchan]

TP

Spoiler: show

[/QUOTE]
Spharai 99 (put 24% aftermath in the spreadsheet)
Hagneia Stone
Mustela
Rancor Max
Brutal
Moonshade AttRg
Thaumas
Mustela
Rajas
Epona
Atheling
Black
Tantra +2
Thaumas
[/QUOTE]

WS set (shijin spiral)

Spoiler: show

Spharai 99
Demonry
Ocelomeh +1
Gorget
Brutal
Jupiter Pearl
Toci's Harness
Mustela
Rajas
Epona
Atheling
Wanion
Byakko
Thaumas

[Taint]

Spharai 99 (put 24% aftermath in the spreadsheet)

Isn't that really high? Especially since it only procs on one first.

[Byrthnoth]

It's triple damage instead of double damage and he only has to exclude multi-attacks from the main hand.