What's Better?

**diasetsu** · 2012-08-31 10:28

Spreadsheet accounts for only being 1 hit I am pretty sure. For Vereth 30% ODD it takes (avg punch dmg*avg#punches)+(avg punch dmg*30%*accuracy), so using 24% ODD for spharai(12% ODT=24% ODD) is correct.

**Byrthnoth** · 2012-08-31 10:42

Spharai can't proc on multi-attacks with the main fist, while Verth can. I'm assuming the ODD in there is for Empyreans, in which case it will overestimate the damage increase of Spharai's ODT if you just put in 24%.

**diasetsu** · 2012-08-31 10:46

Vereth can't proc on multi attacks either. I am pretty sure it is due to the fact that it is offhand, and all multi-attacks with h2h are actually calculated weird as main hand hits. I have no proof of this, but would assume this based on the fact all multi-attack animations are main hand.

**Langly** · 2012-08-31 11:06

Does this also translate to the OTD on a 99 Kikoku?

Last I figured it would reflect something more like an 18% ODD?

**Taint** · 2012-08-31 11:18

Originally Posted by Langly

Does this also translate to the OTD on a 99 Kikoku?

Last I figured it would reflect something more like an 18% ODD?

Thats why I asked. When the 95 relics first came out all the testing was that every relic had about 20% ODD once you factored the ODT and OD2.5.

**diasetsu** · 2012-08-31 11:54

Originally Posted by Langly

Does this also translate to the OTD on a 99 Kikoku?

Last I figured it would reflect something more like an 18% ODD?

As far as the NIN spreadsheet goes, no. The spreadsheet accounts for all kannagi multi attacks also getting the ODD, so if you just input 24% ODD, it would calculate relic bonus the same way which is wrong. You can add in relic procs though if you go to the setup page, there is a blank line under ODD.

Step 1)Just write in "Relic ODD" into A20, and manually enter 0% into B20(tp set1) and C20(tp set 2) if using a weapon other than kikoku. Enter 24% if using kikoku.

Step 2) Then on the Data sheet enter "Relic ODD" into F19, "=Setup!B20" into G19 and "=Setup!C20" into H19

Step 3) B74 of the Data sheet should read "=B70*B72", change it to "=B70*B72+(B70*B63*G19)".
C74 should read as "=C70*C72", change it to "=C70*C72+(C70*C63*H19)"

This should make it calculate relic as a can only proc on first swing of main hand. I may be wrong, but I believe that should work.

@Taint, Mdkuser did testing awhile back showing Spharai to be 12-13% ODT.

**Langly** · 2012-08-31 12:17

Thanks for the input Diasetsu.

Ninja(Literally): I'm dumb and I should feel bad. I think it works right!

Edit again: I want to see how 12-13% Occasionally deals Triple damage translates to 24% Deals Double Damage. I figured it was closer to 18% Double Damage.

**diasetsu** · 2012-08-31 12:26

C70 is the average damage of 1 attack. If you have ODD of 30% it is multiplying your average attack by 130% to account for multi-attacks getting empyrian ODD. Since when using Kikoku you would set ODD as 0% then C70 should just be the average damage of 1 attack. C72 is average attacks that hand does. C74 is (Avg DMG/attack*Avg Swings/rnd)+(Avg DMG/attack*hit rate*Relic Proc). So the relic proc is only accounting for 1 possible chance per round and not factoring into all swings/rnd. If you set regular ODD as anything other than 0% than yes it would screw things up however. I am sure if you ask Motenten he could do something with IF statements and such, but I am not that great at Excel to setup things that change formulas based on weapon selection. This is the best work-around I could think of.

**Langly** · 2012-08-31 12:37

Yeah, after looking at your instructions again the logic hit me. We're using line 74 to add the extra damage that would have occurred with the proc.

My only question now is, is the 24% rate accurate.

**Taint** · 2012-08-31 12:38

Originally Posted by diasetsu

@Taint, Mdkuser did testing awhile back showing Spharai to be 12-13% ODT.

12*1.5 = 18
13*1.5 = 19.5

???

**diasetsu** · 2012-08-31 12:47

12%ODT is 88% =1, 12% =3 so 124% or 24% ODD, I don't know where that 1.5 comes from unless it is reference to only being 1 of the 2 hands??

**Taint** · 2012-08-31 12:56

Originally Posted by diasetsu

12%ODT is 88% =1, 12% =3 so 124% or 24% ODD, I don't know where that 1.5 comes from unless it is reference to only being 1 of the 2 hands??

ODT (3) / ODD (2) = 1.5

Conversion from ODT to ODD.

If ODD was 12% and a base hit was 300 then you would do 7200 damage in 100 swings.

If ODT was 12% and a base hit was 300 then you would do 10800 damage in 100 swings.

If ODD was 24% and a base hit was 300 then you would do 14400 damage in 100 swings.

If ODD was 18% and a base hit was 300 then you would do 10800 damage in 100 swings.

**pchan** · 2012-08-31 12:58

He just likes to argue anything pchan related for the sake of it. The 24% is easy, since the MNK spreadsheet only accounts for mainhand as far as ODD is concerned. So baring the the fact that relic may or may not proc on double attack and such :

12% of the time 3x damage
88% of the time 1x damage
=> 88+12*3=124 which is the same as

24% of the time 2x damage
76% of the time 1x damage

**pchan** · 2012-08-31 13:07

Originally Posted by Taint

ODT (3) / ODD (2) = 1.5

Conversion from ODT to ODD.

If ODD was 12% and a base hit was 300 then you would do 7200 damage in 100 swings.

and you would average 72 per hit lol ? when your base hit is 300 ? Correct number

12*600+88*300=33600

If ODT was 12% and a base hit was 300 then you would do 10800 damage in 100 swings.

12*900+88*100=37200

If ODD was 24% and a base hit was 300 then you would do 14400 damage in 100 swings.

24*600+76*300=37200 win

If ODD was 18% and a base hit was 300 then you would do 10800 damage in 100 swings.

18*600+82*300=35400

**Taint** · 2012-08-31 13:15

Originally Posted by pchan

He just likes to argue anything pchan related for the sake of it.

Thats not true. I rarely post anywhere near your post. (you saying I can't do ADL without PD is just retarded, ofcourse I said something)

Trying to wrap my head around the spreadsheet math.

24*600+76*300=37200 win

12*900 + 88*300 =
10800 + 26400 = 37200

24*600 + 76*300
14400 + 22800 = 37200

Makes sense....carry on.

**Langly** · 2012-08-31 13:45

Thank you for clearing that up.

**Hitoru** · 2012-08-31 17:52

edit: wrong thread

**Taim Meich** · 2012-08-31 19:40

Originally Posted by pchan

TP

Spoiler: show

WS set (shijin spiral)

Spoiler: show

Thanks!

With those sets, against what I consider an ideal PUP set (modeling AM3 the best I could), and against the toughest target possible (Pil with only Dia II on it, no VW temps/atmacites at all), both /WAR, MNK using Impetus, Focus and Berserk, PUP using Berserk and Agressor, and both buffed with Haste and nothing more, MNK gets 244 dps, PUP with maneuvers 186, 204 without. Assuming the no maneuvers case to be the case where the auto is dead most of the time, that's the best PUP can do against MNK in that situation. Assuming an alive automaton and the master issuing maneuvers, the automaton has to make up for the 58 dps distance, which would mean roughly a 75%-25% master-pet damage spread. That's a common distribution, but on tough-very tough or weaker normal enemies. Against a high level NM the automaton suffers a lot on accuracy and attack, so I doubt it could make up for that much damage (all of this, in the magical land of the automatons that don't die).

And now that I think of it, this is probably bordering if not directly into offtopic territory, so sorry for the ramblings.

**CoreyX** · 2012-08-31 19:54

It's easy to keep the automaton alive on 99% of things if you know how, use proper attachments, and position it properly. Also, you should be using the attachments that ignore evasion and defense. You don't *need* to spam maneuvers 24/7, it just enhances the effects of the attachment. The automaton will still attack and do basically the same damage.

It's worth mentioning that Armor Shatterer greatly reduces defense. Also, if you have surplus TP beforehand from regain rolls or something you can tactical switch it then use a dusty wing to start out with two weaponskills from master/puppet. Trust me, there's lots of little tips and tricks to PUP to optimize it that you would need experience actually playing the job to understand.

Armor Shatterer is a pretty strong weaponskill, with a triple attacking puppet it would be ridiculous. Burratainos was pretty broken when it had 10 regain

**pchan** · 2012-08-31 21:07

The puppet is ridiculous in any kind of endgame, don't bother. For instance for what I do when I farm my marrows, It would die to ADL 2 seconds into the fight.

Now for the comparison of KKK against weak mobs ( I used fairly weak stats - low def and 95 vit/agi, and no level correction). In this comparison the attack on gear is mostly irrelevant because I assumed the buffs I use on my monk :

minuetx2 marchx2 (daurdabla99+relic 99) boostdex, 10 str bonus from songs, 10 dex bonus from songs, dia2, berserk, RCB, /war
I assumed impetus on the monk (because it always up anyway when zerging anyway)
All this puts any DD capped on attack on many targets, and both mnk and pup will be capped ddex in this case with many gear combo.

For monk I used standard gear you would use on this kind of target, vere 99 with AM3, victory smite

Spoiler: show

For pup I used this, note that the gear is specific to the weak mob I'm fighting so you could find some stuff strange in there. I assume that AM3 is up

Spoiler: show

I'm using a simulation of my own (AM3 checked last etc), not the spreadsheet (no idea what his OAX means for his spreadsheet), also I think mythic OA2-3 is main hand only for tp and ws. I used 35% base crit on SP (the spreadsheet has 10%) which is what is on bgwiki. I found the following

For monk (impetus up)

Code:

global dps : 709.032184
acc average : 0.949967
wsacc average : 0.949997
critical rate -melee : 0.500566
critical rate -ws : 0.652785
critical rate -global : 0.528301
melee ratio : 0.620180
melee dmg p/s : 439.727657
WSdmg p/s : 269.304527
round per WS avg : 6.166184
avg Ws dmg : 3477.837874
avg punch incl. KA and DA : 294.162647
ws dmg impetus : 3477.837870
ws dmg nonimpetus : 0.000000,0.000000
avg hits per round : 3.130729

For pewp

Code:

global dps : 689.852987
acc average : 0.949963
wsacc average : 0.949941
critical rate -melee : 0.249995
critical rate -ws : 0.639650
critical rate -global : 0.361140
melee ratio : 0.490569
melee dmg p/s : 338.420236
WSdmg p/s : 351.432751
round per WS avg : 5.379833
avg Ws dmg : 4036.711435
avg punch incl. KA and DA : 223.197515
ws dmg impetus : 0.000000
ws dmg nonimpetus : 4036.711432
avg hits per round : 3.237305

myth busted ; a basic mnk with 99 vere AM3 is performing (slightly) better. Also AM3 is only viable on zerg when you start @300 TP, so it's fair to assume impetus on the monk and the comparison is relevant. Granted you can still use the puppet argument, but you will not go far with an underbuffed gimp occasionnaly attacking 2 to 3 times.

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