What's Better?

**Viar** · 2012-10-06 04:16

Originally Posted by Darkhelmet_Ifrit

What's better? Gungnir (at the very least 95 version) vs OAT Polearm (99 version)?

I've tried to find a definitive answer on this but can never find a math supported decision. Any help is appreciated, thank you.

Gungnir 95+ wins according to spreadsheet(but 95 is behind Odin v2 one).

**Byrthnoth** · 2012-10-06 05:04

Originally Posted by Mercilessturtle

How much ODD am I supposed to give ragnarok to simulate relic 2.5x procs?

Depends on the buffs. I had about a 50% DA rate (Fighter's + Base) so OD2.5x can't proc on 1/3 of my hits. With a 1/6 base proc rate on OD2.5, this is equivalent to a 1/6 ODD proc rate, so that's what I used.

As for the crit reduction, my group rotates Blood Rage with a Ragnarok DRK in the party (minimum crit rate 44%) and the only time he (or anyone else) parses above the crit rate floor on Wave 2 is against the Uptala. So I'd put -40% at kind of the minimum crit rate reduction, and -50% is probably not unreasonable given what I've seen.

**Jem** · 2012-10-06 05:07

Originally Posted by pchan

They are correct since under the same conditions, motenten spreadsheet gives 279 dps for the DRK (288 in mine). It's just that we are observing a large amount of ragnarok fanboys (probably coming from the inability to get a level 99 ukkon). With the amount of buffs byrth gave in his post, the only bone you guys have left is crit% minus, because even a pewp will cap its acc with that, so until you can mathematically provide numbers on crit -, level 99 Ukkon is still widely superior to ragnarok in 99% of the content.

They are not correct because I used your exact buff set-up in Mote's spreadsheet using my own gear and get way higher numbers. Also see Taint's post under your buffs which vastly outperform what your DPS says. You are either not giving the DRK their buffs or using wrong gear for your calculations.

**Cairthenn** · 2012-10-06 06:09

When has Pchan not mathed specifically to support his conclusions? Are you surprised or..?

**Taint** · 2012-10-06 08:51

Originally Posted by pchan

They are correct since under the same conditions, motenten spreadsheet gives 279 dps for the DRK (288 in mine). It's just that we are observing a large amount of ragnarok fanboys (probably coming from the inability to get a level 99 ukkon). With the amount of buffs byrth gave in his post, the only bone you guys have left is crit% minus, because even a pewp will cap its acc with that, so until you can mathematically provide numbers on crit -, level 99 Ukkon is still widely superior to ragnarok in 99% of the content.

A lot of the Rag fan boys have 99Ukons....the only reason I don't have 99Ukon is 4 of the people I play with have both (99rag/99ukon) and prefer Rag on Endgame content.

Your same conditions must be missing something, that is why I posted all of my sets,data,setup etc.

**Mercilessturtle** · 2012-10-06 10:32

Originally Posted by Byrthnoth

Depends on the buffs. I had about a 50% DA rate (Fighter's + Base) so OD2.5x can't proc on 1/3 of my hits. With a 1/6 base proc rate on OD2.5, this is equivalent to a 1/6 ODD proc rate, so that's what I used.

Using the same setup you mentioned but with ukkos gear corrected to not be stacking crit damage while having floored crit rate, I have ukon at 366 and ragna at 367. I checked and double checked and I don't see anywhere that I missed something and gave different buffs to one set. Did you accidentally leave the cor rolls giving set 2 a higher roll or something? 0.25% ahead is a far cry from 15-20% ahead. And having the ukon war use upheaval as their main WS and only ukkos for AM would bring ukon slightly ahead.

I'm not seeing a convincing argument for wars to do a ragna here. I could certainly see an argument for bravura, but ragna is even here and much worse everywhere else.

**Byrthnoth** · 2012-10-06 10:44

Including Blood Rage (20%) and the crit bonus native to Ukko's (20%) and the base (10%), WAR doesn't have a floored Crit Rate on Ukko's.... though looking at the spreadsheet, it claims they do. Apparently the spreadsheet isn't factoring in the 20% crit rate bonus from Ukko's.

If I correct that, I get Ukko's being 3.5% behind (455.6 vs. 471.6) without changing anything else or properly accounting for Moonshade's affect on crit rate.

**pchan** · 2012-10-06 12:35

Moonshade averages 7.65% bonus crit according to the SS.

**Galiber** · 2012-10-06 13:01

Would a War with 99 Rag beat out a 90 Ukon?
My Rag is probably gonna hit 99 some time soon, and since I was thinking of lvling war to 99, I wanted to know if it was even worth it making an ukon, since THERE'S NO WAY IN HELL I'M EVER TAKING IT PAST 90.

Thanks.

**Guitarman** · 2012-10-06 19:42

Sidenote to that question above, I thought 99'ing Rag really wasn't worth the money? Last I heard it didn't really gain much going from 95-99.

**Radec** · 2012-10-06 21:11

Originally Posted by Guitarman

Sidenote to that question above, I thought 99'ing Rag really wasn't worth the money? Last I heard it didn't really gain much going from 95-99.

Aside from DMG and ACC, there is no hidden gain that would be relevant. The 95-99 jump matters most for weapons where you use the WS (25% boost rises to 40%), but it's still an improvement. D+10 and ACC+5 aren't nothing either, it'll be about a 6-7% tp phase boost and a 3% WS boost.

Not as big of a deal as say, 95-99 apoc for Catas boost but still worth it.

**Viar** · 2012-10-07 00:35

Originally Posted by pchan

It's just that we are observing a large amount of ragnarok fanboys (probably coming from the inability to get a level 99 ukkon).

Fail to see how'd ppl fanboy a weapon that's more expensive because they can't get cheaper one. Lv 99 Ragnarok on my server is 170M+, lv 99 Ukon cost 166M. If you can get Ragnarok you can get 99 Ukon.

**pchan** · 2012-10-07 05:29

Originally Posted by Byrthnoth

If I take Ig-Alima's stats and give him Crit rate -40% level 99 Ragnarok beats level 99 Ukonvasara by about 15-20% with the Legion buffs my group typically uses for wave 2 (Fighter's/Chaos, Minuet x2/Mad, Embrava, Haste). This is without Savagery/Warcry or Mekira-Oto +1's fTP Boost, both of which benefit Ragnarok much more than Ukon.

This is kind of a random selection of gear, but this is what I used:

Spoiler: show

Unfortunately I think the discussion is being done between you and me which is sad because my WAR is level 49 and ragnarok bandwagon don't have other argument except "pchan". So I played a little with the spreadsheet after I fixed it yesterday and got the following

Ukon+ukko's gear

Spoiler: show

Ragnarok+resolution

Spoiler: show

I used as buffs : RCB, berserk, agressor, restraint, bloodrage, hasso, haste, a boost spell (see below), maxed BRD DDB+relic+5/5 AF3+2 + marchesx2 minuetsx2, ifrit's enfire maxed, embrava, chaos max, fighter's max.

The mob is ig-alima with -40% crit

with boost-str (max) : ukon : 456 dps, ragnarok : 454 dps.
with boost-dex (max) : ukon : 474 dps, ragnarok : 434 dps.

Enfire doesn't affect the hierarchy. Bringing a second cor is pushing the difference even more.

I'd say that both weapons are about equal if you don't try to fight against crits (boost-dex, rogue's roll crit gear, blood rage etc) but if you try seriously ukon wins. Also someone said upheal would win anyway..

**Jem** · 2012-10-07 05:34

Originally Posted by pchan

Unfortunately I think the discussion is being done between you and me which is sad because my WAR is level 49 and ragnarok bandwagon don't have other argument except "pchan". So I played a little with the spreadsheet after I fixed it yesterday and got the following

Except Taint literally posted full gearsets and spreadsheet results which clearly show your original Ragnarok numbers are completely incorrect.

Also what about when Bloodrage and Aggressor are down in the above numbers you posted? Because they certainly aren't fulltime buffs and both give a far greater advantage to the Ukon than the Ragna.

**Jem** · 2012-10-07 05:35

EDIT: Double post

**ccl** · 2012-10-07 05:53

Aren't war supposed to rotate warcry + savagery tp bonus with rag instead of bloodrage ?

Also, it's cool for me drk is trash war and mythic sam only, hope that mind set spread so we never see a nerf to drk/rag, don't want to bandwagon another job again.

**pchan** · 2012-10-07 06:00

I'd say optimally go with 4 war and have warcy and blood rage up for 2 minutes every 4 minutes.

**Jem** · 2012-10-07 06:14

So are those DPS figures inclusive of buffs being down at times or not? Pretty hypocritical to say the conversation is only between you and Byrth because people are going 'Pchan' whilst ignoring comments directed towards your numbers.

**Nekradarken** · 2012-10-07 09:15

Originally Posted by pchan

I used as buffs : RCB, berserk, agressor, restraint, bloodrage, hasso, haste, a boost spell (see below), maxed BRD DDB+relic+5/5 AF3+2 + marchesx2 minuetsx2, ifrit's enfire maxed, embrava, chaos max, fighter's max.

Is the march x 2 a typo? Should it be madrigal x2?

**Brutala** · 2012-10-07 10:41

Originally Posted by Byrthnoth

Ragna TP:
Ragna/Claymore/____/Bomblet
Phorcys/Rancor/Brutal/Belatz
Armada/Phorcys/Rajas/Ambuscade
Atheling/Goading/AF3+2/AF3+2

Did both ukon and rag with restraint down then? You gave ukon af3+2 but I guess becuse it needs the acc.

Originally Posted by pchan

I'd say optimally go with 4 war and have warcy and blood rage up for 2 minutes every 4 minutes.

A war main's WC isn't only 30s. At least it shouldn't be! Not that it matters with so many WARs since the 2 JAs don't stack and I can't find a single no-MS situation which is both realistic and properly buffed where WC benefits rag more than BR does.

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