What's Better?

[Damane]

Really? I've been swapping out Wivre Pin and Pluviale for AF1 hat and AF2+2 body with the idea that the quicker subli is finished the better. For example, I get 420MP (roughly, say 420 for simplicity) from subli.
Over roughly 450 ticks, using subli as soon as charge is complete and as soon as timer is up again:
Pin/Pluviale: 8 round of subli, 4256 MP recovered. 448 ticks, 9.5000 MP/tick
Pin/AF2+2: 9 rounds of subli, 4311 MP recovered. 441 ticks, 9.7756 MP/tick
AF/AF2+2: 10 rounds of subli, 4400 MP recovered. 450 ticks, 9.7778 MP/tick

It appears to me that the direct swap of Pin to AF (1 Refresh for 1 Sublimation) gives more MP (even if only very slightly), which would suggest that point for point, sublimation would beat refresh no? Or is my math off somewhere?

Edit: Above assumes that refresh gear (Pin/Plu) is equipped when you're not charging (10 ticks per subli round).

I use refresh gear on sch instead of sublimation. Because more then often you sit there with a full sublimation without the need to use it, so its wasted slots for refersh (well you could change that in spellcast but fuck carrying 2 additional items just for that case). not to mention that I think 3 MP refresh/tic on body head is better then +2 sublimation only no? (hopefully I get my manasa chausable, that makes it 4mp/tic for body and head). In general I would rather use equal amount of refresh or higher in those slots, just to save inventory space in general. But thats just me.

[Darkmagi]

It's still nice to have the option of having a full sublimation charge for mp intensive activities. My friend does this on whm and his buffed sublimations are really nice when there is a lot of idle time to get that full charge before gear changes are needed.

[noodles355]

not to mention that I think 3 MP refresh/tic on body head is better then +2 sublimation only no?

AF hat is +1. AF2+2 body is +2. +3 total.
Inventory depends on the person. AF2+2 body isn't an inv+1 for me. The 1 skill difference from Hyksos doesn't do anything for me pre or post-nerf embrava (you could also argue healing skill+ cursna piece, but meh) and 50 forgotten hopes is cheaper than a hyksos as well.

I also like how you say "wasted slot for refresh when you're sat with charged siblimation" when I specifically stated "refresh gear equipped when you're not charging [read: full or not up at all]"

At the end of the day I'm still missing the club (laziness) but I charge 420MP in around 1min40 which works out at about 12.7MP/tick (on top of my other refesh gear).

[mdkuser]

I keep seeing you say this, and still can't figure out why.

Even if the dex from Wanion does nothing (eg: dDex going from +21 to +29), even if attack is capped, and even if fStr is capped, I still see Wanion beating Light Belt at Vere 90, and tie (ie: within 5 points of each other) at Vere 99 (with Impetus down; with Impetus up, Wanion starts to pull ahead again). In any situation where the above restrictions do -not- apply, then Wanion clearly wins. This is with the standard +4 WSC, not the fractional chance at +5 WSC.

The fTP of an elemental belt is a fixed addition to the first hit. That addition to the first hit will definitely have more value than +4 WSC to the first hit would, but +4 WSC to each of the remaining hits is a greater percentage increase to those hits than the fTP is to the first hit. Even without counting any DA/TA procs, the overall weighted average appears to be in WSC's favor.

The only time Wanion doesn't seem to win is when accuracy matters, and in that case Anguinus is probably the best option anyway.

The first hit of victory smite is typically 40% of the damage. Once you stack up shura kabuto, light belt and ligth gorget, it becomes the best. Do not forget converve TP on light belt and shura kabuto. I'll give numbers latter. And all this is dont at capped accuracy. +20 accuracy on gorget+ belt is farm from neglectible, when you see the average poster in this thread uses 30-40 less accuracy on his WS build than his TP build.

[Byrthnoth]

Really? I've been swapping out Wivre Pin and Pluviale for AF1 hat and AF2+2 body with the idea that the quicker subli is finished the better. For example, I get 420MP (roughly, say 420 for simplicity) from subli.
Over roughly 450 ticks, using subli as soon as charge is complete and as soon as timer is up again:
Pin/Pluviale: 8 round of subli, 4256 MP recovered. 448 ticks, 9.5000 MP/tick
Pin/AF2+2: 9 rounds of subli, 4311 MP recovered. 441 ticks, 9.7756 MP/tick
AF/AF2+2: 10 rounds of subli, 4400 MP recovered. 450 ticks, 9.7778 MP/tick

It appears to me that the direct swap of Pin to AF (1 Refresh for 1 Sublimation) gives more MP (even if only very slightly), which would suggest that point for point, sublimation would beat refresh no? Or is my math off somewhere?

Edit: Above assumes that refresh gear (Pin/Plu) is equipped when you're not charging (10 ticks per subli round).

I don't think so, no. Say you have 1412 HP (403 max sublimation with 5/5 merits):

8/tick: 51 ticks to fully charge  [ Ceiling(403/8,1) ] :: 403/51 = 7.9 MP/tick
9/tick: 45 ticks to fully charge:: 403/45 = 8.95 MP/tick (+1.05 MP/tick)
10/tick: 41 ticks to fully charge :: 403/41 = 9.82 MP/tick (+0.88 MP/tick)

So the amount that +1 Sublimation/tick adds is going to depend on how evenly your sublimation MP/tick divides into your max sublimation, which in turn depends on your max HP. Now, beyond that, lets look at the impact on average Refresh:

8/tick: 403 Sublimation, 6 MP/tick while charging, 6 MP/tick when not = 12.6 MP/tick average (403 + 61*6)/61
9/tick: 403 Sublimation, 5 MP/tick when charging, 6 MP/tick when not = 12.5 MP/tick average (403 + 45*5 + 10*6)/55

9/tick: 403 sublimation, 6 MP/tick while charging, 6 MP/tick when not = 13.3 MP/tick average (403 + 55*6)/55
10/tick: 403 sublimation, 5 MP/tick while charging, 6 MP/tick when not = 13.1 MP/tick average (403 + 41*5 + 10*6)/51

So no, even when Sublimation gear increases your MP/tick by >1 during sublimation due to rounding, it still decreases your average MP/tick compared to 1 refresh because increases the ratio of dead time ticks to sublimation ticks (+8 MP/tick).

[Taim Meich]

Plus, in MP-intensive activities, there's two things against +sublimation equipment:

1. Refresh gear is not wasted because you shouldn't be at full MP ever.

2. The faster your Sublimation charges (and assuming you use the charge almost instantly) the more often you are going to encounter the 30 seconds wait time before activating Sublimation again. Those are 10 ticks of not getting any MP, so if you have equivalent refresh gear in that slot, it will always be superior.


Eh, uh, now that I've properly read Byrth's post, I realize we've pretty much made the same argument. Oh, well.

[Damane]

AF hat is +1. AF2+2 body is +2. +3 total.
Inventory depends on the person. AF2+2 body isn't an inv+1 for me. The 1 skill difference from Hyksos doesn't do anything for me pre or post-nerf embrava (you could also argue healing skill+ cursna piece, but meh) and 50 forgotten hopes is cheaper than a hyksos as well.

I also like how you say "wasted slot for refresh when you're sat with charged siblimation" when I specifically stated "refresh gear equipped when you're not charging [read: full or not up at all]"

At the end of the day I'm still missing the club (laziness) but I charge 420MP in around 1min40 which works out at about 12.7MP/tick (on top of my other refesh gear).

I have an anhur robe and use it as a fastcast piece too, so all in all in the end its really an inventory savier for me. Also in the process of trying to get a manasa chausable to combo with my spurrina coif. I really dont see the point in useing sublimation + gear (ecxept for the earring).

[sluggo]

Lux or supernal?

[dasva]

Ok I'm confused how exactly would +1 sublimation ever net you more than 1 mp per tic. I mean it's only storing 1 right? So even without the ja delay it should at most be 1? Or is sublimation doing things I don't understand?

[Byrthnoth]

It doesn't net you more than 1 MP/tick until you consider that the last tick of Sublimation isn't fully efficient.

So say you have 8 MP base 99 Sublimation and a 403 max Sublimation potency. The first 50 ticks get you 8 MP and the last tick gets you 3 MP. (7.9 MP/tick)
Now say you have 9 MP 99 Sublimation +1 and a 403 max Sublimation potency. The first 44 ticks get you 9 MP and the last tick gets you 7 MP. (8.95 MP/tick)

The last tick is more efficient due to rounding, so you have effectively increased your MP/tick during sublimation by >1 MP/tick (1.05 in this case).

[mdkuser]

I keep seeing you say this, and still can't figure out why.

Even if the dex from Wanion does nothing (eg: dDex going from +21 to +29), even if attack is capped, and even if fStr is capped, I still see Wanion beating Light Belt at Vere 90, and tie (ie: within 5 points of each other) at Vere 99 (with Impetus down; with Impetus up, Wanion starts to pull ahead again). In any situation where the above restrictions do -not- apply, then Wanion clearly wins. This is with the standard +4 WSC, not the fractional chance at +5 WSC.

The fTP of an elemental belt is a fixed addition to the first hit. That addition to the first hit will definitely have more value than +4 WSC to the first hit would, but +4 WSC to each of the remaining hits is a greater percentage increase to those hits than the fTP is to the first hit. Even without counting any DA/TA procs, the overall weighted average appears to be in WSC's favor.

The only time Wanion doesn't seem to win is when accuracy matters, and in that case Anguinus is probably the best option anyway.

Proof with numbers:

TP build used is :

verethragna99/x/x/hagneia
nemetona/rancor/brutal/ghillie +1
thaumas/nomkhapa/epona/rajas
atheling/twilight/tantra/tantra

WSbuild is:

werethragna99/x/x/tantra
shura+1(WS+3% conserveTP+6, dex+5)/light gorget/brutal/moonshade
tantra/mustella/epona/raja
rancorous/light belt or wannion belt/abatteur/kacura+1

relevant monster stats are monster vit and agi @ 95 and no level corection.

buffs are typical zerg buffs (totaling 178DEX and 191STR in WS before wanion, so caped dDEX even with agi=128 ).

No belt numers:
-average VS: 3450.20
-average round/WS:5.6345
-WS damage per second:346.60

Light belt numbers:
-average VS: 3509.75
-average round/WS:5.5630
-WS damage per second:357.12 ie +3.03% weapon skill damage.

Wannion belt numbers:
-average VS: 3519.40
-average round/WS:5.6345
-WS damage per second:353.55 ie +2.005% weapon skill damage.

This means mob need to have at least 128 AGI for wanion to beat light belt with the above set-up. And since the set-up is not dex-optimized, the limite is even higher: there exist better dex options for ammo, feet, head, ring at first glance.

[Khajit]

Lux or supernal?

Supernal is shit.

[Motenten]

Proof with numbers:
<snip>

This post is slightly mis-ordered due to writing it up as I was doing comparison checks and rearranging things, but I tried to do a decent bit of organization.


1) I'd assumed the secondary augment on the Shura+1 head was attack; Conserve TP is a non-standard stat for that.
2) Even using the Conserve TP augment in an attack-capped situation, Nemetona and Usukane+1 both beat out Shura+1, both in WS damage and DPS.
Note: Made sure the 6 str on the Shura+1 head gave 3 WSC, not 2 due to flooring.
3) How are you getting 178 dex there? I count 32 dex in gear (excluding Wanion). Assume 10 from Marches, and 103 from a merited hume mnk/war, that's 145 dex. You'd need another 33 from other sources (eg: Mithra? Boost-Dex plus double Madrigal? you'd have to drop Boost-Str for that, but could be feasible, but adding Madrigal means the accuracy aspect of the belt is probably irrelevant).
4) You also seem to be assuming absolute perfection on rounds per weaponskill, plus a little more than I can reach. From my spreadsheet, I get 5.63 rounds with the elemental belt with 0 over-TP rounds, and 5.67 with Wanion, compared to your 5.56 and 5.63.


Victory Smite fTP distribution, with possible DA (ignoring TA):
2.25 + 1.0 + 1.0 + 1.0 [+ 1.0] [+ 1.0]

With both gorget and belt, the first hit is increased to 2.45. With WSDmg from Shura+1 head, that becomes 2.5235.

Overall increase due to fTP and WSDmg compared to only using the gorget: 5.5235/5.35 = 3.24% to 7.5235/7.35 = 2.36%

Assuming capped fStr and Vere90 or Vere99, total base damage before WSC would be 98 - 106.

A hume WS set could have somewhere around 175 to 225 str, depending on gear, Boost-Str and Minuets, etc. That translates to about 90 - 115 WSC, and a working range for total base damage of 188 - 221.

+1 WSC in that range is worth 0.45% to 0.53%. To beat the value provided by Shura & Belt, you'd need 5 to 8 WSC, or around 10 to 16 str. With relatively low DA rates, you really need to be more towards the top end of that for an overall better average, though the requirement is lower if you have a lower starting str (eg: using Boost-dex instead of Boost-str).

Wanion+Aias matches the minimum requirements (net gain of 10 str). At the high end, Wanion+Nemetona gives you 15 str, or Wanion+Usukane gives you 11 str and 4% DA. And we aren't even bringing in the value of dex, though if you got that as part of your Shura+1 augment, it's less of a difference.

Also not seeing where you're hitting a 3500 average against anything where Madrigals (assuming that's part of the dex component) are necessary, or where accuracy on the belt can make any difference. I'm having a hard time getting the average much above 2700 against a level 110 target, never mind a level 120.


Of course then there's Conserve TP. It generally has a very small impact on overall DPS, though that fraction grows larger as your x-hit goes down (ie: it's worth more if you're TPing in Thaumas body than if you're TPing in Tantra body).

However, in pushing rounds per weaponskill down, I did finally get the contribution of the elemental belt (or more precisely, the Conserve TP of the elemental belt) up high enough that overall DPS was in favor of that over Wanion, though just barely. If accuracy mattered then it would clearly beat the Wanion Belt, but if accuracy really mattered then Anguinus would still beat the elemental belt. If you're not sure if accuracy matters, though, the elemental belt is a good option.

From my spreadsheet using Pil as a target, mdk's gear sets (~5.65 rounds per weaponskill), capped stats, and adding in weaponskill delay (was left out of mdk's calculations, and favors Wanion slightly), the weaponskill damage per second is:
226.25 @ ele belt
225.71 @ wanion

or 0.24% in favor of the elemental belt.


For anyone not pushing those limits, though (including all the necessary support buffs), it seems inappropriate to continue to present it as the best option for 'most' circumstances.

[JetEnduro]

Also not seeing where you're hitting a 3500 average against anything where Madrigals (assuming that's part of the dex component) are necessary, or where accuracy on the belt can make any difference. I'm having a hard time getting the average much above 2700 against a level 110 target, never mind a level 120.

He mentioned using Lv95 mob stats. Dynamis DCs I'm guessing.

[Khajit]

His mnk is a mithra so i'd assume some of the dex is coming from there.

[sluggo]

Supernal is shit.

ty kindly, to the ground it goes. All of my resources are being pooled into 99vere so I guess Ill use the lux with the str thokcha.

[mdkuser]

This post is slightly mis-ordered due to writing it up as I was doing comparison checks and rearranging things, but I tried to do a decent bit of organization.



1) I'd assumed the secondary augment on the Shura+1 head was attack; Conserve TP is a non-standard stat for that.
2) Even using the Conserve TP augment in an attack-capped situation, Nemetona and Usukane+1 both beat out Shura+1, both in WS damage and DPS.
Note: Made sure the 6 str on the Shura+1 head gave 3 WSC, not 2 due to flooring.
3) How are you getting 178 dex there? I count 32 dex in gear (excluding Wanion). Assume 10 from Marches, and 103 from a merited hume mnk/war, that's 145 dex. You'd need another 33 from other sources (eg: Mithra? Boost-Dex plus double Madrigal? you'd have to drop Boost-Str for that, but could be feasible, but adding Madrigal means the accuracy aspect of the belt is probably irrelevant).
4) You also seem to be assuming absolute perfection on rounds per weaponskill, plus a little more than I can reach. From my spreadsheet, I get 5.63 rounds with the elemental belt with 0 over-TP rounds, and 5.67 with Wanion, compared to your 5.56 and 5.63.

Spoiler: show

Victory Smite fTP distribution, with possible DA (ignoring TA):
2.25 + 1.0 + 1.0 + 1.0 [+ 1.0] [+ 1.0]

With both gorget and belt, the first hit is increased to 2.45. With WSDmg from Shura+1 head, that becomes 2.5235.

Overall increase due to fTP and WSDmg compared to only using the gorget: 5.5235/5.35 = 3.24% to 7.5235/7.35 = 2.36%

Assuming capped fStr and Vere90 or Vere99, total base damage before WSC would be 98 - 106.

A hume WS set could have somewhere around 175 to 225 str, depending on gear, Boost-Str and Minuets, etc. That translates to about 90 - 115 WSC, and a working range for total base damage of 188 - 221.

+1 WSC in that range is worth 0.45% to 0.53%. To beat the value provided by Shura & Belt, you'd need 5 to 8 WSC, or around 10 to 16 str. With relatively low DA rates, you really need to be more towards the top end of that for an overall better average, though the requirement is lower if you have a lower starting str (eg: using Boost-dex instead of Boost-str).

Wanion+Aias matches the minimum requirements (net gain of 10 str). At the high end, Wanion+Nemetona gives you 15 str, or Wanion+Usukane gives you 11 str and 4% DA. And we aren't even bringing in the value of dex, though if you got that as part of your Shura+1 augment, it's less of a difference.

Also not seeing where you're hitting a 3500 average against anything where Madrigals (assuming that's part of the dex component) are necessary, or where accuracy on the belt can make any difference. I'm having a hard time getting the average much above 2700 against a level 110 target, never mind a level 120.


Of course then there's Conserve TP. It generally has a very small impact on overall DPS, though that fraction grows larger as your x-hit goes down (ie: it's worth more if you're TPing in Thaumas body than if you're TPing in Tantra body).

However, in pushing rounds per weaponskill down, I did finally get the contribution of the elemental belt (or more precisely, the Conserve TP of the elemental belt) up high enough that overall DPS was in favor of that over Wanion, though just barely. If accuracy mattered then it would clearly beat the Wanion Belt, but if accuracy really mattered then Anguinus would still beat the elemental belt. If you're not sure if accuracy matters, though, the elemental belt is a good option.

From my spreadsheet using Pil as a target, mdk's gear sets (~5.65 rounds per weaponskill), capped stats, and adding in weaponskill delay (was left out of mdk's calculations, and favors Wanion slightly), the weaponskill damage per second is:
226.25 @ ele belt
225.71 @ wanion

or 0.24% in favor of the elemental belt.


For anyone not pushing those limits, though (including all the necessary support buffs), it seems inappropriate to continue to present it as the best option for 'most' circumstances.

1- By the way shura +1 has 5 common augments: DEX, conserve TP, WSD , skillchain dmg and attack.

2- no nemetona cap does't beat shura (in dps; it does beat it in pure dmg ofc), usukane might (I didnt check salvage gears yet.)

3- The buffs I use are nothing fancy, every thing brd+whm gives (boostDEX, 2xmarches2xminuet).

How do I get 178 DEX? Mithra MNK/WAR has 111 naked+10 from marches+25 boost-DEX+32 equipement. I didn't mention any madrigals but since you bring it, madrigals would give 188DEX.

4- I'll remind you your spread sheet doesn't use exact per round number due to approximations ( cannot misse more than twice in a row iirc). I have somewhere an exact number pulled out of Maple. All my numbers come from a simulation of a parse of 10^5 impetuses (reset after every 3minute), the uncertainty on the estimate is up to the second digit for the round/ws.


Next, how to get 3500 victorysmite?


-Victorysmite crit rate: 63.96%; 42% from equip+merit+TP bonus, the remainder comes from impetus, moonshade and overtp (~22%).
-20% DA and 3% TA give 4.283151 hits in victorysmite.
-average fTp on first hit = (2.25+50/256)*1.03=2.51867

average fTP=2.51867+3.283151=5.801821

critical hits and non-critical hits: 2.0215 non crits, and 2.9535 crits (those are averages values of pdif @ r=2). A crit will be boosted by impetus: I dont recall the exact +critical damage bonus given by impetus... but its somewhere near 20%.

191 STR gives a total of 203.410 base dmg on verethragna (im not flooring anything).

Therefore, victory smite does on average:

(5.801821*203.410)*(0.6396*2.9535*1.2+2.0215*(1-0.6396))=3535, close enough.

This is compatible with real situation parses ( hours of ADL parses) that give me ~3100 victorysmites despite many unavoidable 0 dmg weapon skillls (60% invincible split), despite the fact the fight durating is 1minute and not 3, and despite the fact impetus is reset when hitting for zero).

[Motenten]

By the way shura +1 has 5 common augments: DEX, conserve TP, WSD , skillchain dmg and attack.

Yes; just that when people recommend what to aim for on augments, conserve TP is never brought up.

How do I get 178 DEX? Mithra MNK/WAR has 111 naked+10 from marches+25 boost-DEX+32 equipement.

Right; Mithra and Boost-Dex would add the extra 33.

I'll remind you your spread sheet doesn't use exact per round number due to approximations

Quite so.

critical hits and non-critical hits: 2.0215 non crits, and 2.9535 crits (those are averages values of pdif @ r=2)

Ok, so fighting a target with no level correction. Got it.

[Ladydeathstrike]

NNI vs pdt flan on drk what would be better, twilight scythe or ridill requiscat/sanguine blade spam
variables lr up or down and enspells

[Plow]

ghetto budget thf offhand, with lux mainhand

angr harpe vs twilight dagger

or is there something else I'm missing that's (really) easy? working on corsucanti obv, won't buy an aluh but will rock one if I can get a drop