Relic Weapon Revival (06/06/2012)

[Raldo]

I'm hoping their alliance content will change things.

[Aratharn]

if u know ur grp doesnt have wat it takes to beat ifrit extreme YET, u can always farm more than 3 ore and salts so once a proper strat is out, and u can beat ifrit regularly, you can instantly finish 7 relics :D

My comment was almost entirely directed towards the annoying double meld portion of the relic process. Once you finish Hamlet and have a group that can clear the rest, the double meld is really what can/will slow you down depending on how much gil you have to toss at it. I'm probably just bitter cause the first one I'm working on is PLD and just for the materia alone you are spending 2.8-3.4m per meld. (for +18-20 Heaven's Eye IV's. If you want +16-17 closer to 4m per meld attempt) Again this is just for the materia!

Heaven's Eye IV is ~4-7% chance to come from spiritbinding and is used for two jobs relics (PLD/BRD) hence the ridiculous prices.

[LD]

I see a potential issue in the way they are handling end-game content at the moment.

The higher difficulty (speed runs, Extreme Ifrit, etc) make so that players groups are becoming even more "close".
Of course, I'd not expect Relics to be available on pickup groups, but FFXI had this way of using currency as a way to gather lv75 players. You'd need lots of them to clear all Dynamises, so you'd form a LS and make events and things would go from there.

In FF14, the current top end-game content (Relics) is a matter of having a great 8 persons static. You simply have no reason to interact with anyone else besides your closest LS friends, and you cant let a "newbie" fill a spot because that simply wont work, because of required gear and experience.

Frankly, the fewer people you need to get these things, the better. If we're agreeing that the main reason people are coming together for these things is mutual benefit and not due to mutual respect, then better to make the number of people you end up resenting as small as possible. Even if you don't agree with that, what is the value of "coming together" if it's only for its own sake? That's why I hated FFXI, you never actually cared about the people you did pick ups with and there was no reason to create a relationship when there were hundreds or thousands more just like them. The only times you would bother was when it was a bard or something, and that is a very shallow basis for a relationship, "what use can I get out of you?". If we're forced to come together for content, best to do away with the pretension that we're doing this in the spirit of community. Everyone wants the shit in this game, it doesn't matter how nice you are about it.

Monologue:
That's part of the reason I'll always push for solid solo-friendly content. I believe it's highly unlikely to create a meaningful friendship on the internet while playing a game that's goal-oriented. What people want will always come up and you will become user or used. The point of an MMO imo is to be in a game world that is capable of being meaningfully affected by the individual. I can walk into a town and see the aftermath of a fight two assholes started the night before. It's frustrating to see that the entire industry has become this interactive facebook hackjob where you have as little affect on the game and sometimes your own playtime as you do in real fucking life. I have to get a job with an organization (join a guild) to get phat loot (stable income)? Fuck that, I play video games to do what I want and change the world.

[Raldo]

Talk is all sunshine and rainbows, but how would you suggest they actually go about fostering real in-game relationships? I've made a few good friends in-game (though not this game...), but I couldn't begin to suggest how they could tailor content to foster those relationships.

Sometimes I wonder if they weren't trying to achieve that with their retainer system. You'd have your own shopfront of sorts and people could return to your shop again and again... then somewhere along the line the feasibility of that system hit the fan and it turned into the steaming shit pile we have today.

[LD]

That's kinda my point, they SHOULDN'T TRY TO FORCE RELATIONSHIPS. They should drop the idea because it isn't working. That what FFXI's PT-centric leveling experience was attempting to do. That's what the Guildleve Bar scene was trying to do. That's what the market ward shopping experience was trying to do. That's what pretty much half of the shitty ideas in FFXIV and FFXI were trying to do: Engineer a community. You can't do that, it has to come naturally. That's why it blew up in their face. The attempts have failed.

WoW doesn't try, they just say "Here's an easy way to start group content, you never have to see these people again to keep trying." Did they always do it right? No, there were group quests that crapped up what was essentially a solo experience. They figured it out though. The forums are mere a platform for communication, any cliques that form are purely through the player's actions. Things aren't forced on you like we're a bunch of barbies acting out their vision of a digital doll house.

[TacoTaru]

Monologue:
That's part of the reason I'll always push for solid solo-friendly content. I believe it's highly unlikely to create a meaningful friendship on the internet while playing a game that's goal-oriented. What people want will always come up and you will become user or used. The point of an MMO imo is to be in a game world that is capable of being meaningfully affected by the individual. I can walk into a town and see the aftermath of a fight two assholes started the night before. It's frustrating to see that the entire industry has become this interactive facebook hackjob where you have as little affect on the game and sometimes your own playtime as you do in real fucking life. I have to get a job with an organization (join a guild) to get phat loot (stable income)? Fuck that, I play video games to do what I want and change the world.

I don't want to be overly presumptuous, but it sounds like you want to play a co-op game and not an MMOs. I mean, single-player content in an MMO is perfectly fine and has its place, but if your main content isn't centered around (larger) group work then what's the point of it being an MMO in the first place? You could make a co-op game with drop in/drop out for 1/10th the budget if that's how you wanted your MMO to work. I also disagree with your statement about making meaningful friendships in MMOs, but that's a totally different conversation.

Even if you don't agree with that, what is the value of "coming together" if it's only for its own sake? That's why I hated FFXI, you never actually cared about the people you did pick ups with and there was no reason to create a relationship when there were hundreds or thousands more just like them. The only times you would bother was when it was a bard or something, and that is a very shallow basis for a relationship, "what use can I get out of you?". If we're forced to come together for content, best to do away with the pretension that we're doing this in the spirit of community. Everyone wants the shit in this game, it doesn't matter how nice you are about it.

I think not caring about the encounters you made in XI is a personal thing and not something could be said very generally. I made a lot of acquaintances and friends during the earlier, grinding years of XI because of pick ups. Tthat's how I made it into my first few shells, networked from there and eventually ended up where I did. They played well and were friendly so we'd get chatty. Later in the days/week we would find each other for parties again, they or I would bring a friend, and so on and so forth. XI fostered a lot better casual community to me than this game.

[vadre]

Is the melding process acting as a gil sink (I havent played since pre-materia lols)? Seems like it would be a great way to help deflation considering how much everyone seems to be putting into it, unless of course the money is just going to other players.

I have no plans on rolling on an old server in 2.0, but I think SE could really benefit from dropping in gil sinks sooner rather than later to try and chip away at stockpiles from 2011.

[LD]

The fact that you used the word "networked" shows me how shallow you are. Who uses that word with actual friends? You use that word in business. I use that word at school when I'm forced into group projects, creating false friendships with people I can't stand being around, but know I have to placate just to make sure they don't fuck me over later. If I meet someone and think they're cool we don't exchange business cards. I found out that he liked TTGL too and then we nerd out about the season finale of the Legend of Korra. How we met becomes a complete non-issue. I don't remember how I met any of my friends because I didn't manipulate events to attempt to make a connection. It doesn't effing matter.

It's not your fault, really. This is more a problem with society that with just MMOs, I feel as though the dreck of the '80s has bled their philosophy back into the minds of this God-forsaken generation. While the "Greed is good" mentality faded, what remained is that we have to make life into a business to survive. That's absolutely correct, but it seems like a self-fulfilling prophecy and it's an ugly, cynical way to be. I'm only cynical when it comes to goals, thank you. I'd rather not let that shit clog up friendships, which should be as clean as possible.

I personally believe that people need to rationalize the time they spend in video games as being valuable and to do that, try to get the most out of it. They wouldn't bitch about it if they didn't (exception that proves the rule, OF). That is why I feel people boil down games to "what can I get?". How nice people appear has everything to do with their personality and nothing to do with their motivations. A good test is asking yourself "If I never saw these people again, but still got everything I wanted as easily or more easily, would I miss them?" Or even better "How can I miss someone I only ever talk to when I'm playing this game and trying to get something?"

I suggest you see that as the point at which you agree to disagree, cuz we're not going to come to a consensus. I'm a bit of a fatalist, if you can't tell.

[solracht]

Is the melding process acting as a gil sink (I havent played since pre-materia lols)? Seems like it would be a great way to help deflation considering how much everyone seems to be putting into it, unless of course the money is just going to other players.

I have no plans on rolling on an old server in 2.0, but I think SE could really benefit from dropping in gil sinks sooner rather than later to try and chip away at stockpiles from 2011.

It's not a gilsink (as in gil disappearing from the economy). Materias are sold between players.

[TacoTaru]

*Edit*
Ignore me I misunderstood what you were asking.

[Raldo]

Is the melding process acting as a gil sink (I havent played since pre-materia lols)? Seems like it would be a great way to help deflation considering how much everyone seems to be putting into it, unless of course the money is just going to other players.

I have no plans on rolling on an old server in 2.0, but I think SE could really benefit from dropping in gil sinks sooner rather than later to try and chip away at stockpiles from 2011.

One player is the seller, one player is the buyer; the gil is not leaving the economy. I agree, they could use some gil sinks.

Edit: beaten.

[TacoTaru]

A good test is asking yourself "If I never saw these people again, but still got everything I wanted as easily or more easily, would I miss them?" Or even better "How can I miss someone I only every talk to when I'm playing this game and trying to get something?"

I suggest you see that as the point at which you agree to disagree, cuz we're not going to come to a consensus.

You are reading way to much into me using the word network, and to say you see my depth of "shallowness" from it is laughable. I talk to a lot of people I met in XI out of game, everyday. So to answer to answer your question, yes I would miss this people if I never spoke to them again. That said I agree that we're just going to disagree.

[Kurokikaze]

One player is the seller, one player is the buyer; the gil is not leaving the economy. I agree, they could use some gil sinks.

Edit: beaten.

They need to have NPCs that sell the materia for these weapons. That would make it leave the economy.

[TacoTaru]

Shame you can't still generate seals from leves* to purchase materia .

[solracht]

They need gilsinks in general. Airships (anyone spamming hamlets won't use these), ward taxes and npc repairs (which you don't really ever use) wouldn't be enough in XI, nevermind in a game where you can make so much money from NPCs.

Relic quest was definitely a missed opportunity to add a gilsink though.

Hopefully we'll get more gilsinks in 2.0 via housing, mounts and free companies.

[LD]

Yeah, cuz talking to people means you care about them. Ok.

Relics as they are could be tweaked, but adding more people to the equation will not suddenly make interactions more meaningful. Numbers =/= quality. The only thing I'd want is for them to take out more of the RNG. Other than that, it's a matter of adjusting difficulty.

I don't see the point of a gilsink at this point, but then again I don't see anything in the game as valuable (nothing you can buy, anyway).

[TacoTaru]

Yeah, cuz talking to people means you care about them. Ok.

The amount at which you know of me based off one poor word usage is very intriguing. I hope you can PM me more later to tell me more about myself that I was unaware of.

[Tomino]

Frankly, the fewer people you need to get these things, the better. If we're agreeing that the main reason people are coming together for these things is mutual benefit and not due to mutual respect, then better to make the number of people you end up resenting as small as possible.

If you design content toward groups of 4-8 people, changes are they will have plenty of fun. Well, they could even be RL friends coming together.
Problem is, everything becomes very unfriendly for everyone else, from new users to casual players. Because there is nothing about the game content that encourages veterans to take new players with them.

FFXI endgame contents was based on skills AND sheer numbers. For bad or for good, that made skilled players into forming Linkshells.
Within LS ranks, you would still have that "elite team" to handle harder content, but that's along standard events in which more people can partecipate. Personally, I never went for a relic in FFXI, but thanks to relics being in the game I could experience all Dynamises and also collect plenty of AF2s.

[Kurokikaze]

If you design content toward groups of 4-8 people, changes are they will have plenty of fun. Well, they could even be RL friends coming together.
Problem is, everything becomes very unfriendly for everyone else, from new users to casual players. Because there is nothing about the game content that encourages veterans to take new players with them.

This is the problem that I currently face. All my rl/XI friends quit XIV and I don't have anyone to do content with. Most of the people playing the game already have their set 8 so why would they try to squeeze me in? Most of my recent progress in the game has been through pugs. :/

[Churchill]

I have no interest in playing a game or doing an event where 8 people carry 18 or more.

@Kuro: And most shouts require the achievement for winning something prior to doing the content. People like me, while maybe not perfect at some events strat the first few times we do it, have read/watched/researched enough to be doing it well enough to win.

For the other players in the game who aren't like this, I don't see how they will ever accomplish anything or clear any dungeons. I get that content is difficult, or requires you to pay more attention to your screen than you are at breathing. I get that, and I'm fine with it. Taking a look at it from someone who just started his character and I can see it being a huge problem for other new players. The community in FFXIV reminds me of the JP community in FFXI when it launched in Oct.2003.

(That means the community sucks)