This topic is about rape

[Sera]

I'm still pretty angry and upset with you about this too, so I'm not going to talk to you about this topic any more. Happy to talk to Ryko though.

Well I'm not sorry, because frankly it is trivialization of something that I don't appreciate being trivialized. That said, I actually felt Demo was WAY more obnoxious about it.

[Ikarys]

the underlying issues (of how female characters are developed, how these sorts of tricky issues should be addressed) DO need to be talked about. Relying on waiting and seeing how this particular instance pans out isn't going to change that.

re-quoted for relevance. The "GameFAQs defense" that because something is not presented in its entirety makes it impossible to critically examine is as weak as jumping to a conclusion and saying that this Tomb Raider game will be a rape simulator and branding it misogynist propaganda. I don't think anyone is feigning outrage; there are people who feel a strong emotional response and want to express their feelings on what was presented, and people who want to point out some of the problems presented by the material as-is. I don't think it undermines the legitimacy of people who encounter the real-life situations glorified or stylized by video games to criticize their presentation; at the very least, it does so far less than saying nothing.

[Ryko]

yeah, Ryko, sorry, you were asking decent questions, it was the later stuff that made me angry. It's just upsetting when someone comes in and derails it by dismissing the arguments as being ultra feminist and unthinking or whatever. I was actually pretty upset by that, Sera, and your continuing in that vein is not making me want to discuss this topic with you in the slightest. Yes, I'm taking it personally, because it was personal. And that's kinda upsetting from a friend.

As to Ryko though, if it helps you to understand my perspective, I've agreed with everything Isla has said so far. I'm not going to bother adding more exposition because it'd just be repeating things. But the "it's lazy writing not worth any media" was basically what I was getting at; and the fact that it was plugged into a context that has historically been about objectifying the main character for her physical assets doesn't help in the slightest. Like I said repeatedly, and the point which you seemed to miss, was that I'm not dismissing games as a medium for exploring deep issues. I'm just dismissing this particular game because it seems as though they haven't really bothered to deal with it as anything more than a Character Building exercise. I thought, for example, that Knights of the Old Republic made a really good job of the grey areas of morality, and how easy it is to slip into making morally bad decisions (and moving to the Dark Side). That was the first game of that type that I played, and it's had a very lasting effect on me in terms of my opinions about the ability for games to affect change in the way people think. So please don't get me wrong there. I've seen some more discussions about the scene that is going to be in TR and the descriptions of Lara being "stripped down" to a "wild animal" and crying after killing a deer just seem to me to be on the gratuitous side, is all. I really hope I'm wrong. I really hope this is going to be a KotOR moment and gamers can empathise with the horror that she has experienced. I'd love it if that could happen in FPSes too, especially war scenario games - I think it's really important for people to understand what war is actually about - it's not about gung ho sweeping in to save the day, it's about "blood and guts and veins in your teeth" to quote Arlo Guthrie. If TR's scene is not one of these moments, though, it's ill-considered, sloppy writing at best, because of all the reasons Isla has suggested.

Does that help you understand my perspective a bit more?

Absolutely. No worries, Lin. I knew the situation got a little obfuscated due to the way the conversation played out. Unless someone's being hostile, I generally don't come out swinging. I am glad to consider your viewpoint, regardless of whether I agree with it.

[Sera]

All this because of a high voice register in her voice actor (OMG SHE SOUNDS PORNOGRAPHICZZZ) and some idiot said some dumb shit in an interview, plus 15 seconds of video and we're all ready to just burn the game to the ground.

Oh I forgot: and one four letter word: rape. We gotta throw the buzzwords in there too, guys, it gets the people GOING.

Pretty soon "rape culture" will be as worthless an expression as "privilege." Ugh, fuck people.

[Callisto]

No one is going to play a game that is 5 hours of her sitting on her shrink's couch, crying and having panic attacks the next 10 times she is confronted with having to have CONSENSUAL sex, et cetera.

1) This will be Heavy Rain 3, book it

2) as blanket rebuttal to pretty much every post in this thread: Cooking Mama

[Sera]

re-quoted for relevance. The "GameFAQs defense" that because something is not presented in its entirety makes it impossible to critically examine is as weak as jumping to a conclusion and saying that this Tomb Raider game will be a rape simulator and branding it misogynist propaganda. I don't think anyone is feigning outrage;

lol. bullshit, demo definitely was. But he does that, a lot. About many things. I love him to death, but it's a fact. And doing it about this thing is fucking stupid and is going to deter people who might actually GET IT RIGHT from even bothering to try in the future.

[Sera]

1) This will be Heavy Rain 3, book it

2) as blanket rebuttal to pretty much every post in this thread: Cooking Mama

Thank you. Seriously.

[Chun Liroy]

Sera is Olivia from SVU.

[Linliel]

re-quoted for relevance. The "GameFAQs defense" that because something is not presented in its entirety makes it impossible to critically examine is as weak as jumping to a conclusion and saying that this Tomb Raider game will be a rape simulator and branding it misogynist propaganda. I don't think anyone is feigning outrage; there are people who feel a strong emotional response and want to express their feelings on what was presented, and people who want to point out some of the problems presented by the material as-is. I don't think it undermines the legitimacy of people who encounter the real-life situations glorified or stylized by video games to criticize their presentation; at the very least, it does so far less than saying nothing.

I completely agree with you. it frustrates me that people want to completely dismiss discussion off the bat because it doesn't align with their world view, or they "weren't offended" by it (so why should we be?).

[Sera]

Other than that idiot director's mouthvomit, there is nothing to be offended ABOUT yet.

But yeah, keep being offended over 15 seconds of video, bad voice acting, poor PR and a bunch of assumptions.

[Chun Liroy]

Lara's voice actor is sexy shut your whore mouth.

[Sera]

15 seconds of video that doesn't show anything, PS! woo!


"Rape culture" will be the next worthless conversation killing buzztopic, hands down.

[Sera]

Lara's voice actor is sexy shut your whore mouth.

People argued that the fact that young Lara's vocal register was a higher tone than other Lara made her sound intentionally pornographic. Yes, people actually said it.

[Chun Liroy]

People said A-Cups are pedophilic. Don't underestimate stupidity (inb4 obvious joke).

[Charismatic]

Someone explain rape culture to me in as few words as possible.

[Sera]

Sera is Olivia from SVU.

I don't watch that show

[Charismatic]

People said A-Cups are pedophilic. Don't underestimate stupidity (inb4 obvious joke).

Those "people" were Australia.
What more needs to be said?

[Sera]

Someone explain rape culture to me in as few words as possible.

White Guilt for men.

[Chun Liroy]

I don't watch that show

How

[Linliel]

lol. bullshit, demo definitely was. But he does that, a lot. About many things. I love him to death, but it's a fact. And doing it about this thing is fucking stupid and is going to deter people who might actually GET IT RIGHT from even bothering to try in the future.

This is not about Demo. But the way you're going about completely smacking people you claim to love in the face without even listening to them or taking them seriously is pretty upsetting. It's not "fucking stupid". It's not "going to deter people". It's important to talk about these things, whenever they arise. You seem to think that this is an all or nothing thing - something REALLY HAS TO BE HAPPENING for it to be discussed. And that's simply not true. Like I've said before, I really hope we're all proved wrong about TR. But that won't negate the discussions that have been had. And it might emphasise, if TR gets it right, how GOOD writing and characterisation can be done in video games. Somehow I doubt that'll happen, given what we've seen so far, but I'm happy to hold out hope for it.

And your argument goes for you too. You're here busy burning bridges over something that's pretty fucking small fry in the scheme of things. Perhaps you should think about that too; it's a deeper issue about you not taking your friends seriously or listening to what they have to say, and blowing up at them about some assumptions you made about how they are thinking which you've taken completely out of proportion.